fevans Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 It is available as an accessory for 58 quid. It looks simple to fit - any thoughts? Has anyone tried one? Felix Yealmpton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Perry Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Sounds interesting, tell us more someone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bricol Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Maplin - 98p buzzer Connect to centre pole of indicator switch and earth - no diodes, no fancy electrics. Velco/double sided tape to back of dash so it acts as a sounding board - easily heard with loud exhasut and helmet on . . . Switch on indicator, either way, and buzzer sounds. Move finger - switch off - easy! However, I can supply said buzzer for a Westie beating price of 50 quid . . . 😬 Bri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 This is similar to my "CatFlash" design, which quite a few Club members have, although the Westfield one is dash mounted only. The Westfield catalogue doesn't appear to give any details other than it is self-cancelling (after a preset time). Just for comparison, my CatFlash unit can be dash or steering-wheel mounted (Q/R or fixed wheel), has user settable self-cancelling times or may be reset by a second push of the indicator button. Further a left turn, say, followed by an immediate right turn does not need the left indicators to be cancelled first, as switching on the opposite indicator switches off the first side automatically. It also incorporates a buzzer which can be selected on or off. The CatFlash is priced at £68. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Mill Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 58 quid !! I'm in the wrong business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Colin A simple timed-out self-cancelling indicator switch is very easy to design and build. This is how I assume the Westfield version operates. My CatFlash circuit however, utilises a microprocessor with specially written software to facilitate all the many options and functions. Being fair on Westfield, they are not going to sell thousands of these units, perhaps a couple of hundred at most, so their costs have to be amortised over a very small production run. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Mill Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Hi Chris If you have a look at the sort of think I have to produce for fully distributed prices of that order you'll see why I think I'm in the wrong business! (see www.rcmodels.org/csm) Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Geez Colin, I see what you mean. You are in the wrong business!!! For the Heli Rotor Lock at a fully distributed price of £45, that means you must have to build it for about £7 to get the kind of manufacturing margins you need. And I bet you only have a market of a few hundred rather than thousands. Do you asemble your own circuits in-house or farm them out? Why do you have to have an end price so low? Is there lots of AsiaPac cpmpetion or is that the highest price the market will bear? R/C flying kit is usually not cheap especially helicopters. Coincidentally, I used to be an avid R/C fixed-wing flyer until I started flying the real thing (single engine & gliders). I haven't flown R/C for about 7 years now although I still have all my R/C planes and equipment. The Club to which I belonged included Neil Tidey, the designer and owner of "Laser Engines" whose 4-stroke engines power most of the winning world champion R/C models these days. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Mill Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Hi Chris Your not far off in your estimate! We have a very good surface mount assembler who is very competitive on price - if you ever need one please let me know (so long as you don't keep him from delivering up my jobs 😬) We do final inspection, assembly and test in house (especially given how dangerous model helicopters are). Your right about the far eastern competition. Futaba and JR really don't like people like me playing in what they see as their market. I have spoken to Neil a few times and have a Laser 80 in my Fokker DR1. The quality of his stuff is outstanding - he proves we can take the fight to the best of the Japanese and win. I'm thinking of using a modified RevLock to do a rate conversion so I can drive the standard speedo from a wheel sensor. I just have to code it to do a non-integer rate multiplication which should while away the odd evening!! Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Do give my best to Neil next time you speak to him (my full name is Chris Wyles - the club is/was the Leighton Buzzard R/C Club). I haven't seen him for about 6 or 7 years now. Glad to see from his website that he appears to be thriving. It's a small world! With your board assember, can you give him just a circuit design or do you need to layout the SMT board yourself and he literally just assembles it? What kind of minimum quantities does he need? What are the tool-up costs etc etc? I would love to produce some of my Cat circuits in quantity which I certainly can't do myself in terms of time available and cost of production. Maybe we could link up and you expand into car cicuits too? I have a number of designs. Cheers Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Mill Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Hi Chris I'll talk to Neil - it will give me an excuse to buy a Laser 260 to try in a helicopter 😬 Our assembler will take a circuit diagram and do the full thing for you. I tend to do all my prototyping first using Eagle PCB cad and a company called PCB Pool to do small runs of SM boards that I hand assemble. It means I can hand the assemblers a fully sorted design which keeps the tooling costs down. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Molloy Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 I had a look at the Westfield self cancelling module. It does come with a nice mom/off/mom switch for activation. However, none of the systems above offer the features I had on a Yamaha motorbike way back in 1979! The most important factor being cancellation based on time AND distance travelled. If you are stationary in the middle of the road waiting to turn right into a junction, you most definitely DO NOT want your winkers to time out. 😳 I have just chucked away my home-brew (555 timer) version due to exactly this problem. The module used on Harley Davidson bikes seems to have a comprehensive functionality. It includes: 1) self cancellation based on time and speed 2) operation via two momentary push buttons (left and right) 3) cancellation via a second press 4) hazard function if you press and hold both buttons simultaneously 5) load sensing (double flash rate indicating lamp failure) Something along the above lines that would read the speed pulses from my Stack sensor would be nice. Challenge for Chris W? Have to say I would be happy to chuck away the "clockwork" flasher unit fitted as standard. Does seem to be prone to startup problems ans water ingress... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted May 25, 2006 Leadership Team Share Posted May 25, 2006 Something along the above lines that would read the speed pulses from my Stack sensor would be niceOr more simply the switched pulse from a bicycle (Sigma?) type sensor, enabling fitment to more traditional Caterhams 😬 Chris - If you are looking at commercial production of the units, is it then possible to combine units together - we have touched on this before? I like the concept of the indicator module running from steering mounted switches in addition to a CatStart, but I'm a little worried about the space the various boxes will take up! Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Ref the desired list: 1) self cancellation based on time and speed 2) operation via two momentary push buttons (left and right) 3) cancellation via a second press 4) hazard function if you press and hold both buttons simultaneously 5) load sensing (double flash rate indicating lamp failure) My CatFlash design can do all the above actually except No. 5, but I offer it currently with No. 1 based on time only and with No. 4 inhibited because every 7 already has a hazard system and for the number of times we use it, the additional circuit cost (in very small quantities) is not worth it. No.5 is already taken care of by the Caterham flasher unit, which actually is a very sophisticated electronic unit and not a "clockwork" version. (Maybe it was many years ago - I don't know). The flasher incorporates a very clever integrated circuit which handles all the functionality required by that unit including load sensing. The problem with having a unit based on speed or even revs, (viz: if you're idling at traffic lights the idle revs will tell the indicator unit NOT to switch off) is not one of design - it's fairly straightforward to design and is very similar to the design used by my gear shift lights (CatShift). The problem is one of the fitting of the unit by people at home. Connecting to the indicators is one thing, but connecting to the speedo or tacho can cause a number of interface issues. With the large number of variants of these two instruments and wasted vs normal spark ignition and dizzie vs electronic ignition, it is not worth doing in small quantities for the amount of design work and testing required to ensure the design will function with ANY instrument and/or any ignition system while trying to achieve a reasonable market price. If I thought I could sell say 100-200 units as opposed to the couple of dozen that I sell of each type normally then it might be worthwhile but otherwise it's not economically viable for me. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Molloy Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Sorry Chris, but I didn't think the "Catflash" could do the speed input? Have you already worked out the software algorithm etc.? This is the crucial factor that makes it worthwhile IMHO. Indicators that cancel when you don't want/expect them to are downright dangerous! 😳 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Mill Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 I would have thought it would be easy to mount a hall sensor and magnet to pick up on the movement of the steering column and make it almost conventional in the way it cancels on coming back to steering centre (It just so happend I have these nice little hall probes 😬) Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Whitley Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Another one : £85! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Colin's on the ball. A hall sensor with magnets on the steering column is a good idea. I guess one would need 2 magnets on the steering column to provide a "reference" and a "I have turned" point. Chris PS: Mike: re speed input. As I said above, it's not the circuitry, it's the fitting by "non-electronics" people at home. However, I will think about the Hall sensor idea a bit as usually there are always one or two elephant traps to sink you, just when you think you've got it sussed! 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 OK, I have worked out a way to incorporate the "auto-cancel by steering wheel position" into the existing CatFlash circuit. I don't want to penalise the existing CatFlash users by redesigning the circuit (which would be the easiest course) but unfair to those people who have already bought. The way I intend to do it doesn't require the existing microprocessor to be reprogrammed so existing users can simply add some external components. I will offer it as an upgrade kit in about a month as I have a lot of other circuits to build at the moment (mainly "CatStarts") Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Molloy Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Have to say it's easy to get carried away with all these fancy gizmos... There is nothing actually wrong with the totally mechanical cancelling system as fitted to 99% of cars on the road! In fact I changed the steering wheel on my scooby and lost the cancelling actuator in the boss. Doesn't bother me at all. But in a tin top environment I am much more likely to notice if I have left the indicators on by mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Pearce Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Does anyone know of a source for mom-off-mom toggle switches suitable for replacing the standard indicator switch? Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Ray Maplin or Farnell - you can order from both on-line. Obviously, replacing the indicator switch with a momentary switch on its own is no good without some kind of timer behind it and a means of manually cancelling which is what my CatFlash circuit does with, in addition, momentary switches on the steering wheel (fixed or Q/R version). Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hibster. Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Chris Eeeek, an upgrade and I have to admit to not actully having fitted my Catflash unit yet (I blame the weather) Paul Supercheese R250 Caterham pictures here 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Terry Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 Chris, I have just spent a drift day with like minded people and got involved in indicator warning/cut off systems. One guy was talking about one he fitted that was for a motor bike and had a time out feature. Having read all the above threads I realise that this could be a right pain when waiting to turn and the system cancels the indicator. The system you mentioned last year seems to have sorted this out. Any chance of any more info? Thanks Blue Heaven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Formston Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 Hi I got one of theses self canceling things off Norman Last year, he did one of his bulk buys all I need is ether two switches or a switch off a Westfield but I haven't go around to fitting it yet, my son has a Westfield and the switch looks very good, so I may give them a ring and get one Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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