Tim_H Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 I wasn't expecting to have to post this, after fitting the 1144 pads. ❗ (never had this trouble on my Cosworth after fitting the similar material) Live Axle 1600XF car, Standard disks & calipers, and 048 tyres. Out for a couple of quite 'serious' blats, through my favourite L - R - L - R etc, road, and I can feel the brakes starting to fade, and last night, accompanied by the famous brake pad smell ☹️ What to do next? and will they last up to a trackday next week? - bearing in mind that there's more distance between the corners @ Brands! First thing to try, - change the fluid? - I am unsure of it's age, and have possibly boiled it. Tim L7 EVN - on the upgradealator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Durrant Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 I would definitely try changing the fluid first, also have you given the pads a chance to bed in before working them hard 🤔 I have no experience of 1144's but if there not up to the job I can highly recommend Pagid RS15's Mark D Su77on Se7ens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy7 Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 I've had fade from 1144s at Lydden towards the end of a secession, but have never had a problem with them on the road, or at any other track days. Lots of the Caterham racers use 1144s so they should be OK, best bet is to change the brake fluid first. The pads needed changing recently and I have now changed them for RS15s which don't fad till they reach 900c. Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 So can I - but I've only had them on for a handful of miles... I didn't experience much in the way of fade with 1144s - apart from (IIRC) a trackday at Snetterton (might have been on different pads - it was a long time ago...) The fluid certainly took a pounding at Anglesey - and the pedal went quite soft - but the pads held on. Pad-fade on the road is unusual - unless you live up a mountain, I'd have thought.. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Safe to say that with the std pads (for the AP 4 pot fronts) and 1144's in the rears, I've never ever experienced fade. I have experienced fade in the rears when fitted with inferior pads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_H Posted June 14, 2005 Author Share Posted June 14, 2005 Pad-fade on the road is unusual - unless you live up a mountain LOL - or drive like a Driving God, like me 😬 😬 Yep, the pads are well bedded in, with plenty of brake dust between washes. suppose a fluid change is in order. (it is normally more of a squashy pedal, than smelly pads) -( oo er missus ) Tim L7 EVN - on the upgradealator Edited by - Tim_H on 14 Jun 2005 18:30:27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris__ Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Better fluid could be the answer. Brake fade (ie squishy pedal) is the fluid boiling isn't it? Castrol SRF's the best, but damn expensive. ATF Superblue is supposedly good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrigsby Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 AP600 is also good and a lot cheaper than Castrol SRF. Rob G www.SpeedySeven.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Performance Braking do their own fluid which is AP600-compatible and half the price... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Procter Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 you'd have to be going pretty hard to boil the fluid on the road I boiled mine on an airfield - in a 2.0VX with full AP racing brake upgrade; and I was killing the brakes at the time. Out of interest how long were you out? Brake fade towards the end of a track session (say half an hour?) is common. If you were driving hard for say 2 hours, I wouldn't be surprised to see a bit of fade on the road. How are the brakes now? If they start a bit strange and then back to normal you're fine. BTW when I boiled the fluid I changed to AP600, and had no further problems. Relatively not that dear either. Just watch its compatibility (rather lack thereof) with Dot4.1, 5.1 etc. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanteam Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 LIve axle? do you have drums at the back? If you do, could these be a contribution to the fade effect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Jason had fade on 1144 on big brakes so not surprised on standard kit. I don't rate them as a track pad. If your braking effeciently is dramatically affected by fade then it's the fronts. They do most of the work. Try Pagid on the fronts. The standard AP big brake front pads were Ferodo race and they are excellent both road and track. Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here My racing info site here Edited by - stevefoster on 15 Jun 2005 16:41:41 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 BTW when I boiled the fluid I changed to AP600, and had no further problems. Relatively not that dear either. Just watch its compatibility (rather lack thereof) with Dot4.1, 5.1 etc. ISTR that AP600 is Dot 4 compatible - and so will only cause issues with Dot 5 (no .1) Dot 4.1 doesn't exist AFAIK. Confusingly, being as few applications run 'Dot 5', most ordinairy mechanics seem to refer to Dot 5.1 as 'Dot 5'... Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_H Posted June 16, 2005 Author Share Posted June 16, 2005 you'd have to be going pretty hard to boil the fluid on the road - Yep. - i've managed it in quite a few cars in the past. Basically if you get to a 90' L R L R L combination, with say 75 - 100 yards between each corner, have a car that'll accelerate like hell between each corner, and stand on the brakes before each corner, you can easily induce brake fade. Fade is not normally easy to do in a slower car, as the speed doesn't build up enough. (that's why you see LOW GEAR NOW signs on long steep hills, to assist your brakes, as if you're on them to the bottom, they'll have faded to nothing) Brake fade (ie squishy pedal) is the fluid boiling isn't it? Fade can come in two flavours - where the pad material has become so hot, that it doesn't work, (and smells), or boiling the fluid, as it heats up, and becomes ineffective, and the pedal is, yes, squishy. Normally, if you're lucky you can feel fade coming on, so after a slow down for a minute or so, the brakes will normally come back, if you're unlucky, it'll happen at the corner, and you're hedgebound. Fluid is hygroscopic, and absorbs water over time, which helps to lower the boiling point, therefore reducing braking effort to push the pads against the disks. LIve axle? do you have drums at the back? If you do, could these be a contribution to the fade effect? Not really, - nearly all the braking is done at the front wheels, as the weight is thrown forwards under deceleration. If there was any significant braking being done at the rear at this time, it would just lock them up, due to the lack of weight on them. So - To changing fuid. I've never done it before. - is the method: 1) Pipette as much as poss out of the resevoir, and replace with new. 2) Bleed through to each wheel for 5 or 6 pedal presses. 3) Top up reservoir. ??? Many thanks for your continued interest in this thread. Tim L7 EVN - on the upgradealator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 A note about AP600. You must flush out all the old fluid with plenty of new AP600 or else crystals may form and cause problems. This is from AP's recommendations on their website. Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here My racing info site here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c7kjt Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 I know that the main focus of this thread has been on the squishy pedal/boiling fluid aspect, but just wanted to give a thumbs up to the EBC TurboGroove disks as a way of avoiding the hard/ineffective pedal/gas buildup effect. A whole bunch of us have just come back from the Pyrenees where we've been up and down mountain passes all day long. Most of us have std brakes, with 1144 pads but run the EBC TurboGroove disk. Pleased to report that we suffered no fade whatsoever despite some VERY hard driving on occasions. A bit more expensive than the std disks at ~£100 a pair, but in terms of bang for your buck we can't fault them. Kevin Thomas The 7 Gallery... with added BBCi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gregory Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Kevin: Just out of interest, as a control experiment, was anyone running the std discs (non turbogrooved) & M1144s on the blat (race 😳) in the Pyrenees? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c7kjt Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Mark, No we didn't but a few of the guys have previously experienced issues under less extreme conditions. So I can't guarantee they had a positive effect but the general concensus of the 4 of us that were running them was that they were beneficial Kevin Thomas The 7 Gallery... with added BBCi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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