Billy Whizz Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Other than fitting the Caterham supplied bilstein kit, are there any other popular mods for making (Ital) Live axle cars handle/ride better? Old very noisy BRG 1760 x flow, cycle wings and minilites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tricky dicky Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Piers, Me again, we seem to have the very same problems. Using my car mainly on A & B Roads one up with plans for the odd track day. I have chatted to a lot of 7eveners and they advised on the following:- 1. Dampers & Springs My car runs on standard spax adjustable dampers (with the small screw at the base of the damper) with standard springs (close coils). These are the original fitting so could be past their sell by date by now. The dampers adjust clockwise for harder ride and anti clockwise for softer, I have experimented with this and prefer a softest setting, the car is less bouncy and the axle is not "jumping up and down quite so much. 2. Tyres My car was on the original rubber - 8 years old so I have just fitted Yokohama o21's from George Polley Motorsport on the recommendation of local club members and this has improved feel of the car, tried running at 17psi which seems very low but made the car feel much less "jumpy and twitchy around bends. 3,. Talked to Mick and John @ Redline they do a number of tweaks for Live axled cars and can recommend a De Dion spring set up which apparently can improve the handling and ride of the car. 4. I've taken the plunge and gone to Freestyle @ Brands Hatch, Len Unwin has advised me on a set up for Road and Track use which has fully adjustable dampers and stiffer springs, these you run on the road in full soft mode but can turn up a few clicks for track or pressing on, they are simple to adjust without a screw driver and he tells me will transform the car, time will tell! Regards Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Whizz Posted March 28, 2004 Author Share Posted March 28, 2004 Thanks Richard. I'm going to go down the upgraded spring and damper route too. On the road I always have the current Spax on softest too. I vaguely remember hearing that there was a rose jointed A frame commection available in lieu of the bush, which made a difference... Old very noisy BRG 1760 x flow, cycle wings and minilites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Riches Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 I have an "A" frame with Rose joint, it does reduce the slack from the rubber bushes normally installed but I don't think the location is noticeable improved, as there are the bushes at the lower end of the shock absorbers and at the forward end of the "A" frame, the advantage of the Rose joint is the greater distance between replacements, especially if the axle has a leak, Rose joints are expensive, and a different "A" is required, but if you don't want to be under the rear axle every 1500 miles it's worth it, best regards Nigel. 1982. 5 speed, clamshells. B.R.G / Ali. The True Colours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonP Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Hi Folks, Agree with Nigel on the A frame, worth doing. Seems the tyre sidewall height and stiffness has a lot of influence, I had a live axle car with 185/60 14 on it and the thing was dangerous...slightest ripple in the road and the back end would go very rapidly! 185/65 14 made it much better, 185/70 13 (ie the original fitment for live axles, better still. JonP No longer Sevenless....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Whizz Posted March 29, 2004 Author Share Posted March 29, 2004 Where do I get the rose joint? Old very noisy BRG 1760 x flow, cycle wings and minilites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casbar Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 You can also fit Leda dampers (can buy from James Whitting or direct from Leda) they are adj and have spherical joints at the rear. Fit the adjust twin wishbone and new anti roll bar on the front. Use 185/70 Yoko 21Rs. My car handles very well after the above upgrades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Bucket Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 Morning All How to make your live axle car handle better. Try the following: 1. Decent tyres - often overlooked, but probably the biggest difference (I use 32Rs) 2. A rose jointed a-frame, does help but mostly because you no longer have to replace the rubber A-frame bushes after every track day. NB this is a different A-frame, you cannot just replace the bush with a rose-joint. 3. Decent shocks which have a rose-jointed bottom end - these provent the damper from binding. I use LEDAs which are good but heavy. 4. A rear anti-roll bar - yes is can be done, makes the world of difference, but does require (modest) chassis mods (Ratrace did mine) 5. Keep the rear springing fairly soft - I use 130lb springs (300 lb on the front) and the car does a lot of track work. I previously ran 110lb springs. You keep the roll in check with the anti-roll bar. 6. Fit Quaiff LSD. 7. If the front wishbone is held using the front anti-roll bar as part of the top link then consider replacing with the de-dion wishbone. (there have been many seperate posts on doing this) 8. Fit aluminium hubs (not really necessary, but keeps the unsprung weight down). 9. Fit James Whiting's rear disk conversion kit. 10. Fit Alcon calipers to front. The above should make a live axle car handle pretty well. If anyone is at Cadwell and wants to take a good look at Baby B., then you are very welcome. Finally to make it go like it handles - get Rob Morley (Protune) to build a nice 165 bhp x/flow motor 😬 Hope this helps, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrino Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 BB - what profile 32Rs are you ruuning on your LA? I bought the car with 195/50/15 Yoko A539s and have just bought some 13"x6" Minators - would like to try 32Rs, but unsure which profile is best? Aesthetically, I don't think I'll be able to tolerate 70 sidewalls, so is 60 OK? Predominantly road use ATM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philwaters Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 I run 60's on my LA. The sidewalls are about as stiff as they come, and you do notice it, although only in the ride really, not had any problems with jumping off bumps. I've not seen 70's, but you get them as 021's which have softer sidewalls as well. My next tires will either be 70 021's or some CR500's which are lighter and stickier than 21's. Not much help am I Phil Waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Bucket Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 Ferrino, I use 185 x 60 on the front and 205 x 55 (?) on the rear - which are on 7" rims. When its wet I use 185 x 70 21Rs on 6" rims. Hope this helps, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrino Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 Thanks chaps. I was also thinking about CR500s for extra safety in standing water and reducing unsprung weight, although they are pricier, aren't they? My new wheels are 6" wide all round and I was considering going 175/55/13 - would these be too puny for rears? Engine is about 160 BHP - thought I read that rear tyre width is only really important in 180+BHP Sevens though.... Also, what's the widest tyre you can safely fit on a 6" wide rim? Cheers 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonycaterham Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 Peter (Baby Bucket) I am running most of the mods you suggested except in the braking department and not running rose jointed rear shocks but have done all the other mods. I have about 200bhp out of my Zetec and hopefully should be running at Cadwell (I am on the reserve list, but live in hope). I am currently on a weight reduction program both me AND the car. My choice of tyres are 021r's for the wet, acb10's or slicks for the dry. Would be great to compare notes. Regards Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon redshaw Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 A cheaper mod for the rear a-frame is to fit polyurethane bushes. These can be purchased in several forms to suit the hardness of the ride. They are not effected by oil and last for years! i am running Freestyle Avo's and will go poly-bushes on my new English axle (lovely Axle build by Steve at SP Components). Have rear discs (with bias adjustment) and have changed to de-deon front hubs/ford centres (helps). Good brakes at the front will also assist handling - 4 pots needed to suite more power. Also increased wheel diameters - 13X6 Front and 13X7 rear. Good tyres a must, particularly as I am now running an XE 2.0 ltre lump! Good luck with your mods. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry.h Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Tony and/or Peter, Can you describe please the mounting points for the rear ARB and where they are - both on the axle and on the chassis? I am trying to envisage how it would be fitted and am failing miserably. Cheers, Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Bucket Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Barry, The rear anti-roll bar is underslung behind the axle. It uses adjustable drop links from the brackets on the Ital axle and has mounting brazed onto the chassis. Hope this helps, in a week or two I could take some digital pictures - drop me an email with your details if this is of any use (the reason for the delay - I managed to leave my digital camera at a friends house at the weekend (doh !)). Tony, Yes it would be good to compare notes ! I have now run Baby B for 6 years and it has evolved from a 1.6 Classis SE over that period. I am now considering using Nitron shocks (double adjustable with a remote reservoir). Simon, I considered using polyurethane bushes - but the rose jointed A frame wasn't that expensive (£50 ?) and I did have some concerns about the way the poly bushes would cope with the up and down and roll movements of the centre of the axle. I also have a bias adjustment on the rear disks. Did you have to make any chassis mods to fit the Ford axle? Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon redshaw Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Peter, Can you tell me where you got the rose jointed A frame from or what components plus welding is necessary? Any pictures? Also does the rose joint fit easilly into the drop down drilled metal points on the Axle bottom? If this is a more solid and funtional option, I will make the change? Also how much did the anti rol bar cost you and again where did you get it from or have the work done (is it a job for Arch motors)? How much better is it if you compare have the RJ and better suspension already? how does it improve the ride/handling? Any photos? Regarding the Ford Axle, I am still to make the chasis mods. this is not a difficult affair as I have taken off the aluminium sheet from behind the seats already and most of the work is with the aluminium in and around the entrance to the prop shaft tunnel (drivers seat side). The biggest hassle is fitting the de-deon hand-brake cable to the disc brakes and knowing exactly where to locate the metal plate that takes the cable? Last question - what engine are you running in the classic now? My email address is redshaws@amylum.com if you can send any pictures. Will be much obliged. Rgds Simon *thumbup* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Whizz Posted March 31, 2004 Author Share Posted March 31, 2004 I've just ordered the handling kit from Freestyle, and the 021s recomended. Where do I get the rose jointed rear A frame,or the poly bush? And, is the twin wishbone worth doing and where do I get it? Is it worth going to 7" rear wheels/wider (205?) tyres? Old very noisy BRG 1760 x flow, cycle wings and minilites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbieclark Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Instead of replacing the front top wishbones, caterham sell a kit to convert your existing top wishbone/rollbar arrangement into a proper wishbone and seperate anti-roll bar. probably not quite as good but cheaper and easier. I fitted this with a freestyle adjustable anti-roll bar and freestyle/avo shocks and found that I can set the car up anywhere from very understeery to very oversteery, as I want it. Shocks make roadholding much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casbar Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 The top wishbone kit Caterham sell is the same as the one for the de-dion, and they don't tell you that the rod ends have the incorrect taper on for a live axle trunnion upright. So you have to source and change the rod ends. This has been discussed on many occasions, so you probably know this already! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Riches Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 The Rose joint and "A" frame were available from Caterham, but I got mine in 1989, or possibly earlier, give 'em a call, can only say yes or no. I seem to recall the Rose joint is not a commonly available size, something like 0.5" bore with the across flats of the ball being 0.675" the outer race is 0.5" wide by 1" in diameter, I think, and there are two cone shaped spacer which fit either side of the "ball", with the larger end to the diff mounted bracket, the joint is located in the bore of the "A" frame by 2 circlips. I made a couple of thick rubber washers to fit in the "A" frame eye, located by the spacers, and a liberal quantity of grease was applied to keep the grit and crud out, hope this has been of some assistance, definately won't go back to bungy things under the diff. Nigel. 1982. 5 speed, clamshells. B.R.G / Ali. The True Colours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisHawkins Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Hello, Sorry to barge in on this a bit late but I am interseted in the rear anti roll bar if somebody could send me some pictures that would be great. I have carried out most of the mods listed and have de dion front wishbones and leda shocks but have always been in two minds about the rose jointed A frame so would be greatful for some pics of that please Thanks in advance Chris 😬 K93 AMJ jetped-boarders.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonkey eyed barmaid Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 " Instead of replacing the front top wishbones, caterham sell a kit to convert your existing top wishbone/rollbar arrangement into a proper wishbone and seperate anti-roll bar. probably not quite as good ** but cheaper and easier **. easier maybe, but cheaper no. if you can source a pair of standard dedion upper wishbones and an arb with mountings, then you can do this conversion for less than half of the £200+ caterham will charge you for the little top links to create a wishbone out of the existing link. and you still need to cut the bodywork. so easier is a matter of opion when it comes to removing the existing top link and refitting a full new wishbone. as it happens this is very straight forward, once the springs are clamped up with ratchets. also agree on going for a set of AO21R yoko tyres. £40 a corner from George Polley. will allow you to go much faster that 20bhp worth of engine mods would, for a fraction of the cost. i have not gone down the road of rose-jointed a-frames or shockers, because i believe the existing set up is fine, so long as all bushes are good quality and changed frequently. changing the a-frame bush is not the nightmare job some make it out to be. it can be done in 20mins no problem. i have lowered the spring platforms on my bilstein shockers to reduce ride height and centre of gravity. but have yet to fully road test let alone track test this setup to confirm any improvements. i will say though, one thing to check is that the rear ride height is set up slightly higher than the front. if it is lower it can make the back end very wayward, and almost lethal in the wet, due to the lack of body roll to assist the tyres in their quest for grip. tyre pressures also make a huge difference, so it is worth experimenting with them between 16-21psi (yoko 21's). i keep the rears slightly harder than the front (1psi) and keep the front left slightly softer than the front right (again 1psi) to reduce brake lockup on that wheel when iam in the car sans passenger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puremalt Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Didn't someone mention recently that 32 s are too sticky for a live axle, Saw a colleage rip a linkage off one on saturady at Llandow when running 32 s with an LA. I ask for info only... Clamshells...You Know It Makes Sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Bucket Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Nigel, You are quite correct - I got my rose-jointed A frame from Caterham 2 years ago (Sourced through Ratrace). I didn't use rubber washers - the cone spacers packed with suitably sized spacer washers made for a snug fit. Chris The rear anti-roll bar is a standard Caterham part and the minor chasis mods were undertaken by Ratrace. I should be able to take some photos in a few weeks. Puremalt, I used 32Rs for a few years now without problems - I did around 1000 track miles last year 😬. Simon, The motor is now a 1700cc x/f (was 1600cc) with 162bhp. The engine revs to 7,500 and runs on twin 40s with a 234 cam (yes, 234 !) It was built by Rob Morley at Protune. Perhaps we should have a seperate techtalk for the live axle cars ? Cheers, Peter Edited by - Baby Bucket on 31 Mar 2004 18:11:45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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