martinwhitcher Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 All this resale value back from CC is nothing short of B*******S , afterall how much will you get from CC for your car? I suspect less more than £1500 less than market value 😳.... Therefore what's the point in spending twice as much on a CC upgrade, still potentally not have a smooth running (well compared to a properly set-up emerald) engine, then to top it off when you sell the car CC offer much less than market value 🙆🏻 You pays your money, you takes your choice........ Martin MW 51 CAT Superlight No.171 Edited by - Martin Whitcher on 19 Feb 2004 09:51:38 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard_E Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 I agree that we are all of different mechanical levels on blatchat but half of the fun of owning the car is making changes and individualising the car. When I first bought the 7 I knew very little about the mechanical side of things, but 2 full days spent with Dave Andrew (read 15 hours a day) when performing my upgrade has taught me loads. I am looking to go 1800cc soon and the prospect of removing an engine was also daunting but there are plenty of people here to help and many will offer to help in person. The supersport R option seems a lot of money to spend but I agree that your car will still be standard and very main dealer resalable. More power can definitely be gained by going in other directions but you may have to revert back to standard if wishing to trade in. May car was registered in May 98 and many times I have thought about trading in for an new build but the two thoughts come to mind. The initial depreciation hit and currently I only need a visible smoke test with no cat required. I think that I would get more out of stripping down the car and rebuilding, rather than buying a new build. The power output of R777 FUN is definitely more than the supersport option but I don’t have that much more midrange. The power and torque curve are almost identical up to 4500 rpm, and still lets the girlfriend drive it without being intimidated. The car remains very drivable and is docile around town and on light throttle. To my surprise 1227 cams will tick over happily as low as 600 rpm. My upgrade was performed with the final spec being 1800CC so I will gain more mid range when I do this. The engine spec in its current form was aimed at gaining more mid-top end power. The fact that I have lost nothing in the lower range in a bonus. When do you drive the car below 3000 rpm any way? After 4500 rpm is where the action starts to happen. AT 5500 rpm I have a further 7 BHP, 6500 rpm a further 26 BHP. The 1227 cams are starting to sing now at 7000 RPM, where the supersport is starting to trail off, and I have an extra 50 BHP. With forged pistons and double springs the car should be safe to 8200RPM but I have my limit set at 8000 RPM where I am producing 190 BHP. So from 5000 rpm up I have loads of grunt and would like to compare my performance to the supersport R. Which ever route you go i am sure you wont be disappointed. Emails sent to Mark and Rob. Edited to remove 7000 BHP, CHeers Bertie Edited by - Richard_E on 19 Feb 2004 09:56:32 Edited by - Richard_E on 19 Feb 2004 10:05:41 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertie Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 7000BHP, now that's what I call an upgrade!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard_E Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 7000 BHP 😬 The throttle is on or off though. In comment to Martin, the emerald ECU, Jenvey TBs and a RR session make the car run very smoothly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted February 19, 2004 Leadership Team Share Posted February 19, 2004 It's only a matter of time before Caterham are forced to accept DVA as THE K-series guru, in exactly the same manner that they respect Minister etc. When they do, DVA modified cars won't gain in value at trade in, it'll just be a case of everybody recognising that ALL cars traded in to Caterham will get a crap value, in the same manner as trading to any other commercial dealer. That's life, accept it Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Buy an engine from a scrappy and tune that as Dave J suggests. It'll only cost a couple of hundred, you can use your existing sump pan and all the other Caterham specific bits and tune it as you like. You can always put the old engine in if you ever want to sell the car. I'd recommend you get an 1800 from the breakers and then peruse the DVApower website. One final word though - if you go to an 1800 then you'll want the work to include porting and a step higher on the cams than the SS cams you have now or you'll find the zingyness of the new engine a bit disappointing as it won't feel as revvy. I used to have a 1600K SS, all that's left of the engine is the block these days. The head was ported, the crank is from an 1800 VVC MGF, the rods are s/h steel ones, the pistons are forged, DVA ported the head, fitted bigger valves, 740 cams (aka BP285), and converted it to solid followers. Johnty Lyons and I then assembled it all, fitted a 4-2-1 exhaust (the SS exhaust is OK but not brilliant) plugged in the emerald and off I went I also added a dry sump as the low oil pressure when hot and on track always worried me. The spec is quite conservative in that I only rev to 8k when I should really go to at least 8500. Even so - the first time you open it up after its been mapped is MAGIC. I suddenly realised that the M3 Evo I was following was completely unable to pull away and I'd short shifted every gear and was now in 6th doing about 110 ❗ In the 1600 KSS I'd have been doing only about 80 ❗ I'd really recommend Johnty as well - he's happy to do freelance work with you in your own garage and charges a very good rate and explains as much as you want and ensures you really understand what's going on. Provided you give him a bed, lots of tea and meal HOOPY R706KGU Hoopylight R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard J Darnell Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Dave - you do not say what other options you have on your car. I have been slowly upgrdaing my 1.6 SS over the last 3 years and have deliberately left the engine to the end as it is the most expensive thing to upgrade and I wanted a car that was ready for more power - so first I upgraded the tyres (yoko), brakes (AP 4-pot), gearbox (6 speed) and suspension (wide track, stiffer springs and flat floor set-up). The above changes alone have transformed the car and made it a much faster A to B machine. By upgrading each item one at a time I've been able to learn what each upgarde does and remind myself what makes a Caterham special - after all, if I just wanted loads of grunt I'd buy a TVR. Having said that, we all want more power eventually and so far I've changed the exhuast to a 4-2-1 item without a catalyst and just had vernier pulleys and a 52mm throttle body fitted by DVA. Both changes have given me noticeably more torque rather than top end power and car now feels (and is) a good bit quicker. I have thought long and hard about whether I should go the Caterham upgrade route or DVA but having now met Dave of DVA fame I'm now certain DVA is the way to go. He really is "Mr K-series". As others have said, you need to think about what you are trying to achieve. For me, upgrading has been part of the pleasure of owning the Caterham and has meant I've not lost interest in the car. This is what stopped me swapping it for a SLR or R500 - where do you go from there if upgrading is your thing? On the other hand if you just want a faster car that is easy to sell on the Supersport R upgrade might be the way to go - certainly cheaper than getting an R300 with basically the same engine (especially if you already have all the other nice bits) meanwhile, it seems like another dry day so time to go out for a drive.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Absolute total agreement with you Richard HOOPY R706KGU Hoopylight R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Martin Posted February 23, 2004 Author Share Posted February 23, 2004 Richard, The car does have a 6 speed, but most else is standard. As for what I am looking for it is not so much top end speed as some real punch when overtaking on normal roads. The 1.6SS is nice, but I want it to be even nicer without having to bust the bank . DVA has a nice pack of differnt bhp options, but how far to go to achieve what I am after, that's the question I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Day Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Hi Dave Dave Jackson's earlier advice was sound - it means that you can return the car to it's 'normal' state in the future. Also, DVA has an excellent and well earned reputation. Personally "I" have done a similar thing (twice in two cars!! ) and replaced a crossflow with a reasonably warm K. The chap that has done all the work is Nigel Keats (Cougar) - see his advert in Low Flying. You would do worse than to speak to Nigel (01527 821675) for honest and straightforward advice (in my experience) cheers Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luddites7 Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 I went from a standard 1600k via DVA route, added fast road race CAMs, Emerald ECU and throttle bodies - spent the day 'helping' with the upgrade. Its amazing the amount you learn, also makes it much more enjoyable seeing whats actually being done and good insight to engines for a mechanical novice. I cant believe the difference both in performance and sound - its fantastic. I couldnt come to terms with giving Caterham so much more money and not seeing what they were doing - also have all the old bits left so can always convert it back to the original spec if required. I would have to recommend the DVA route - but as Martin said previously you pays your money and takes you choice. Next is the gearbox - better ratio 5 or new 6 speeder - may have to settle for the 5 speeder after reading the other thread on this - think it will get that little bit extra out of the engine. got some photos of the build somewhere so if anyones interested let me know Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert OSELLO Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Jason, I would be interested by the same route you did. Can we get in touch to discuss about that? Thanks a lot, Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavenly7 Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 I have a 1600K which started life with a "standard" five speed box. When I first spoke to Dave (DVA) he suggested I get the box sorted out first. BGH rebuilt the box with modified ratios. The difference was stunning - in my view you will never fully appreciate increasing the power out put of the engine without attending to the box. Then I went for Dave's series 5 package with forged pistons. Amazing - and a total gentleman to deal with. I was surpised when the EMU was mapped as the engine peaked out at 198 bhp. Dave had reckoned the package would produce around 180 bhp. The car has since been back on a different rolling road following changing the exhaust and peaked out at 205 bhp at 7,800 rpm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangely Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 I concur regarding the BGH gearbox and DVA's engine mods. I've just been down a similar route to jnessling, from the sound of it, and I'm very pleased with the result. The (hopefully) final installment of the saga is here: http://www.strangely.org/diary/200402/wow.html There are also two earlier articles, linked to from the bottom of that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Kipper Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Guys I have just spent a half day at DVA watching and helping 🤔 Dave fit verniers and the 52mm TB to my 1.6ss. I can't remember the exact figures off the top of my head but Dave said the timing of the inlet was worse than the standard 1.6, let alone the Supersport conversion. Needless to say, the drive home was a lot of fun 😬 The car now feels like it should have done from day one, much more responsive and pulls hard through the full rev range. I can't believe that I competed in sprints for three years with a car in that condition Why didn't I have this done before (but I suppose, more to the point, why couldn't Caterham have produced the car in this condition in the first place.) By the way, top marks to Dave for putting up with me and thanks to Babs for the bacon sarnies. Kipper Fun is not a straight line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luddites7 Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Guys - what sort of ratios did you get in the 5 speed box from BGH, this is probably going to be my next investment !! Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangely Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 I went for what Brian refers to as the 2.8 Sporting Close (used to be an E7). This has a choice of ratios, but I went for: 1st 2.66 2nd 1.75 3rd 1.26 4th 1.0 5th 0.82 They're all closer than normal apart from 5th which I wanted to keep as something approaching a cruising gear. You could have anything up to 0.89 for that if you prefer. I am very pleased with my box. It's nice having sensible ratios; 1st is tall enough to be useful, and the gaps between all the gears are consistent, always dropping me back in the power after a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard_E Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Glad you enjoyed the Drive home Kipper, thought you would. Rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard J Darnell Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Dave - if you want mid-range punch then, as a starting point, I'd certainly recommend the vernier pulleys and 52mm throttle body that Kipper and I have had done. You will certainly notice the difference. A better exhaust (a 4-2-1) will also boost mid-range punch. I posted elsewhere the effect of these 2 mods - using an accelometer my 30-70mph dropped from 5.5s to 5.0s after fitting the exhaust and to 4.7s after the vernier pulleys and 52mm TB (exactly the same time as my 370bhp XJR can manage) It was DVA that recommended I change the exhaust before doing any engine mods. I intend to upgrade further in due course but it's nice to enjoy the increase in performance in stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 What's the cost of convertiong the ratios 🤔 ie if I post BGH a std 5 speed gear box and they post it me back with the new ratios 🤔 HOOPY R706KGU Hoopylight R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Heavenly - I've got a similar spec (ie std head but big valves, solid lifters, 285 cams, custom 4-2-1 exhaust etc) and I don't get 205 bhp. I got 190 bhp.... hmmm... A few thoughts though - my 190 bhp was with an inlet temp of 45C (as my filter is right up against the rad and Emerald didn't have the fans installed). If the inlet temp was 15C (as it would be outside on the road or with decent ventilation in the RR room) then I'd get an extra 10% more air so thats another 19 bhp. hey presto 190 bhp goes to 209 bhp. Also mine was still climbing at 8000 rpm and I was too chicken to go higher (although the bottom end should be perfectly happy at 8500 I didn't want to break my new engne ❗) What inlet temp did you have on your run 🤔 HOOPY R706KGU Hoopylight R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigYin Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Don't want to join the theoretical debate about potential resale/trade-in values but thought I would share my practical experience. I started with a 1.6 SS and, having been quoted c £3k to upgrade it to 160bhp (still from 1.6) by QED (on the basis of engine only delivered to them), I decided on the CC SSR upgrade to 1.8. It cost £3.3k, with them doing the engine out/in work of course. The fact that I basically got all new internals was a bonus. Does it make a diffference? Oh yes 😬!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! More torque improves everyday driveability and flexibility, more power brings the 0-60 down to around the mid 4's, though the rev limit is now 7.4k. But the noise, oh the noise! On a CC long 4-1 "quiet " exhaust system it is pretty civilised up to 4k then, from 5k WOT all hell breaks loose the inlet blast is wonderful and reminds me of half a DFV (but then I'm ancient enough to remember when whole DFV's first arrived) . So, Dave, whether you use CC, DVA or John Noble, just do it - you won't regret it. Silver SV SSR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigYin Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 and...................... to echo Jon from Essex's offer, if you're in the N Mids/Staffs (basically just up the road from Curborough and the Swift/Wong nexus) area and fancy a demo run 😬 let me know. Silver SV SSR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangely Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Hoopy, my BGH upgrade cost about £550, but would have been cheaper if I hadn't screwed up the order and basically made them build the box twice. The actual cost varies depending upon which bits they can reuse. Give Brian or Chris @ BGH a call and talk it through. They won't give you any BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 OK - so about 500 seems a reasonable estimate. Just wondering what to get Emma for Christmas (her car has the 5 speed, mine has the 6) HOOPY R706KGU Hoopylight R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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