Rust!

[SLR No.77]

I think a slight reality check is needed here. Caterhams are not built to withstand the rigours of a British winter with salted roads. If that's a user's intention then additional protection is needed along the lines of the sort of protection offered to mainstream production cars, various chemicals are available from the likes of Dinitrol, Bilt Hamber etc that will offer substantially more protection than a Caterham in its standard form.

Looking at the photos of Rob's car the corrosion is extensive and far more than would usually be evident on a Caterham of that age, but that must have been caused by something. A Caterham doesn't simply corrode in the rain. Neither do Bilstein shocks. Neither does the lower wishbone nut on the front upright. Neither do the headlight shells supplied to Caterham.

It does raise the question whether at some point, either recently or before Rob acquired the car, whether the car has been cleaned with some fairly powerful 'traffic film remover' type chemicals? Or maybe left unwashed after being subjected to salted roads? Or is it being subjected to pressure washing with added chemicals?

To have multiple items exhibit such corrosion, from multi supply sources (clearly all via Caterham but not produced by Caterham themselves) defies common sense, let alone mathematical probability.  Rob please don't take offense at these comments, they're not intended to be personal!

Stu.

 

[Gridgway]

12 minutes ago, SLR No.77 said:

I think a slight reality check is needed here. Caterhams are not built to withstand the rigours of a British winter with salted roads..

 

Is that what caterham say?

[SLR No.77]

25 minutes ago, Gridgway said:

Is that what caterham say?

You’ll need to ask them.

[StevehS3]

I would agree with Stu’s summary of the situation. Take a look at the 7 and make your own mind up. There are lots of vulnerable areas that would be prone to corrosion if it was stored in the damp or subjected to road salt especially without any additional rust proofing. Having said that I could scratch the paint of a new set of seat runners with my finger nail so I don’t think that is good enough. 

Edited December 8, 2023 by StevehS3

[Gridgway]

1 hour ago, SLR No.77 said:

You’ll need to ask them.

Ok, so it was a rhetorical question.  As someone else has point out, these cars new are huge prices, it's not unreasonable that they have chassis paint/coatings that last for more than 5 minutes and survive damp and salt!

Feels like the cars are put together from generic tat from your favourite kit car bits supplier!

[ScottR400D]

Just as likely they’re just badly finished. 

No they’re not built to withstand a British winter with salt on the roads. But I doubt they’re built to any standard that tests corrosion resistance, if I’m honest. 

 But £1500 to change a couple of headlights? If that’s not a joke it’s a;disgrace. 

[SLR No.77]

42 minutes ago, Gridgway said:

Ok, so it was a rhetorical question.  As someone else has point out, these cars new are huge prices, it's not unreasonable that they have chassis paint/coatings that last for more than 5 minutes and survive damp and salt!

Feels like the cars are put together from generic tat from your favourite kit car bits supplier!

My answer was also tongue in cheek!

I do agree that more attention could be paid to corrosion resistance. My 7 is 24 years old (does that make it an 24/7?) and where I’ve replaced parts I’ve tried to plan for longevity particularly with respect to reliability, although a slightly different subject to corrosion. 

I think 80% of the issues relate to:

 - the use of aluminium which would definitely benefit from some protection internally, wax treatment for example and the grot trap issue is well known;

 - poor quality powder coating which has been incredibly variable over the years.

Both these issues can be solved but I suspect Caterham’s dogged determination to drive down cost with suppliers doesn’t allow any margin for improvement. I know of two suppliers who in private have said they would not sell a product directly to the public at the reduced specification level Caterham demand, those conversations being had when I’ve had to have items repaired/reworked. In my opinion it’s just not acceptable at the price point Caterham are now selling cars and it’s time they woke up to this.

Stu.

[aerobod - near CYYC]

From a powder coating perspective, it doesn't really matter what quality it is, if it is exposed to winter roads it will corroded in a couple of years. Our Porsche Macan has corrosion on the steel powder coated parts facing the road after 2 winters of use, I haven't seen a car used in the winter that doesn't. The key to corrosion protection on mainstream cars is a rubberised or similar coating on the underside parts, but they just leave the steel suspension parts to rust, Caterhams are really just the same, but there aren't any protective panels to cover the exposed powder coated components.

[Rex]

I live in Pennsylvania , where the winters are pretty tough. I have driven my 2002 SV all winter long for 20 years. I avoid driving it on bad weather days. There is no visible rust on any painted surface, including the black painted headlights. If I crawl under the car, I"m sure I can find some surface rust in spots.  

[Phil G]

Hi Rob,

Sorry to hear about all your troubles. It's situations like this that that highlight how far Caterham have to go to restore customer confidence (take heed Mr Lashley).

For such a young car to show this level of corrosion, it make me wonder where, and how, it was stored during it's short life. I have seen cars that live near the coast to show atypical decay, however, in this case it may simply be neglect......not from you, obviously 

All the previous advice is sound and I sincerely hope this experience has not put you off Seven ownership. 

[AlastairA]

It would be fantastic to have a comprehensive guide on how to protect a 7 from such issues. How to thoroughly clean before winterisation; where and how to apply ACF50; how to touch up stone chips, etc.

Does such a guide exist? I'm sure the collective knowledge of the club could create the ultimate reference manual.

Edited December 10, 2023 by AlastairA

[Ainsley]

 

[Gridgway]

Looked rather like car washing 101 to me!  Anything equivalent out there about how to rust proof the rust attracting bits?

[ScottR400D]

On 09/12/2023 at 08:18, Phil G said:

Hi Rob,

Sorry to hear about all your troubles. It's situations like this that that highlight how far Caterham have to go to restore customer confidence (take heed Mr Lashley).

 

How right you are. How far they have to go and how little real effort they make. 

They sidestep every issue and nothing has changed since Laishley took over. Nothing.

Its often been says but remains true, there’s no interest from them once you’ve bought.  
 

 

[Rob Mullan]

Thanks all for the helpful and interesting comments!

Pretty obviously I am in the £40k-for-a-modern-car-should-mean-that-it-doesn't-fall-apart-in-normal-usage camp. I'm really not buying the argument that an old design should mean we accept worse rust than a 1970s Datsun. Cars are covered by the Sale of Goods Act, which requires that goods should be fit for purpose and of merchantable quality. In my opinion this means cars and the components they are made from should be able to withstand the rigours of driving in this country, for some reasonable period of time. Two years is not a reasonable period of time.

Several people have said the car should be Waxoyl-ed annually at a minimum. If this is the case then the handbook should make this explicit and the Caterham service should include this work as a matter of course. That this is not the case suggests that Caterham do not think it necessary.

Here is Caterham's own view, taken from the owner's handbook. Feel free to laugh or cry as appropriate....

[Rob Mullan]

On 08/12/2023 at 11:54, David JLM said:

On 07/12/2023 at 18:59, Gridgway said:

Caterham Gatwick not caterham at all?

Yes they were!  Weren't they?

I was thinking the same. They were Caterham, I can't see why one would think they weren'tm but I'd happily be enlightened!

I think this matter is worth clarifying.

When I bought my car from Caterham Gatwick I had no reason not to believe they were Caterham themselves. When I collected my car they gave me the attached 'Congratulations!' letter. It has two addresses: 'Head Office and Factory' and 'Caterham Gatwick", but only one company number and one VAT registration number. When Gatwick's service department closed Caterham's marketing suggested a smooth transition, with the servicing moving to HWM. There was no indication that this was anything other than the same operation in a different building.

Here is an extract from a contemporary press release, still on the Caterham website:

When I contacted Caterham to raise the issues covered in this thread I received an email which opened with this:

"Just to clarify, HWM are an authorised appointed Caterham franchised dealer and as with all car dealers in the UK, operate their own business.  They are not a continuation of Caterham Gatwick which was the dealer previously representing Caterham in the area, but are there to offer customers sales, service and repair work.  Caterham as a manufacturer does not have a service department and Caterham Gatwick operated as a dealership in its own right."

I wonder how many other people were aware that this was the case.

It is not exactly convenient for me to take my car to Horsham, let alone Gatwick (I live in Reading). If I had known there was no genuine benefit in taking it to Caterham I would have gone to an independent specialist much closer to home.

Caterham Ownership letter.pdf

[ScottR400D]

7 minutes ago, Rob Mullan said:

I think this matter is worth clarifying.

When I bought my car from Caterham Gatwick I had no reason not to believe they were Caterham themselves. When I collected my car they gave me the attached 'Congratulations!' letter. It has two addresses: 'Head Office and Factory' and 'Caterham Gatwick", but only one company number and one VAT registration number. When Gatwick's service department closed Caterham's marketing suggested a smooth transition, with the servicing moving to HWM. There was no indication that this was anything other than the same operation in a different building.

Here is an extract from a contemporary press release, still on the Caterham website:

When I contacted Caterham to raise the issues covered in this thread I received an email which opened with this:

"Just to clarify, HWM are an authorised appointed Caterham franchised dealer and as with all car dealers in the UK, operate their own business.  They are not a continuation of Caterham Gatwick which was the dealer previously representing Caterham in the area, but are there to offer customers sales, service and repair work.  Caterham as a manufacturer does not have a service department and Caterham Gatwick operated as a dealership in its own right."

I wonder how many other people were aware that this was the case.

It is not exactly convenient for me to take my car to Horsham, let alone Gatwick (I live in Reading). If I had known there was no genuine benefit in taking it to Caterham I would have gone to an independent specialist much closer to home.

Caterham Ownership letter.pdf 259.32 kB · 0 downloads

The HWM thing is recent. CC just dumping another responsibility onto someone else who seems determined to milk the opportunity. 
Having said that, CC were never that special in terms of servicing/repairs. Just expensive.
You’d be much better off with one of the established after market places if there’s one close. 
To be fair most of them seem to charge like wounded buffaloes but HWM, from what I’ve read are up there with the best. (Or worst!) 

Edited December 11, 2023 by ScottR400D

[Rob Mullan]

CC are saying they never had a service department.

[DirtBuddha]

I feel for the OP. That amount of corrosion is shocking, as is the breathtaking quote from the dealer to fix it. 
 

This thread is yet another reason why I only ever buy cheaper, older models… fixing them up if they need it, but mostly just driving and enjoying them. 

Would I like a £40k 420R, or £60k 620R?
- Yes I would. 
 

Would I actually spend £40k / £60k on a Caterham (or even over £20k for that matter)? 
- Not on your life!!! 
 

Do I get just as much fun and enjoyment out of a cheaper, older car?

- You bet. 

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by DirtBuddha

[Nigel B]

I recall reading an interview with Graham Macdonald in Low Flying several years ago, where he explained Caterham had originally taken on the Gatwick facility because they were anticipating selling their version of the car that eventually became the Alpine A110.

Obviously, the collaboration with Renault didn’t work out & they were left with a larger showroom than they needed. Graham said at the time that they wouldn’t renew the lease when it came to an end.

[PlastererPete]

1 hour ago, Rob Mullan said:

CC are saying they never had a service department.

Strange as my father previously had the CSR serviced at Gatwick and all paperwork, billing address, bank account etc were all labelled “Caterham”. 
As with others on here, he was not impressed with the work and subsequently went elsewhere. I’ll be giving PGM a go as I’ve read on here that there attention to detail is great (which is what I’m all about, both in trade and life). I’m happy to make the 1.5 hour-ish drive if the work they do is good. 

[Beagler]

Morgans are the same as far as being unsuitable for all round year use. When I owned mine in the late 90’s they talked about soggy sill boards where the horse hair padding of the sills below the doors wood absorb water and rot the sill board and frame. An aftermarket company produced a fibreglass moulded replacement. Add to the fact the car leaked like a sieve and water splashed up through the floorboards and was not what you would wish for a price of £23k at the time.

[SLR No.77]

Rob, I’ve just read back through your previous posts and if I’m reading correctly, you bought the car in November ‘21 at 10 months old so you’ve now had it two years, some rust was evidently appearing towards the end of year one, and the photos are now current? Is it correct to assume that you’ve used it extensively through the two winters you’ve had it? 

Stu.

[Gridgway]

3 hours ago, Rob Mullan said:

CC are saying they never had a service department.

Well that's not the case.  I used to get earlier caterhams serviced at the factory when Len Unwin was in charge of that bit!!

Then they used to do servicing at the showroom by the station.

Then that all moved to Gatwick.

[Rob Mullan]

2 hours ago, SLR No.77 said:

ob, I’ve just read back through your previous posts and if I’m reading correctly, you bought the car in November ‘21 at 10 months old so you’ve now had it two years, some rust was evidently appearing towards the end of year one, and the photos are now current? Is it correct to assume that you’ve used it extensively through the two winters you’ve had it? 

What would you class as extensively?