Is it worth it…. Suspension

[Hooley]

Hi all. 
What's the thought of the knowledge base on upgrading an ex academy year 2000 1.6 120bhp 5 speed ford box....with the following

1) wide track suspension 

2) Bilstein adjustable coilovers (or other coilovers???)

3)lsd

is it worth it ?

if so which order? 
worth upgrading something else first before these and especially before I send it away for more power. 
not unlimited budget but would look at selling my first born if it is worth it. 

I do 90% of my driving on a and b roads, and might do a few track days and hill climbs if I'm lucky. 
 

Thanks

Jason

[StevehS3]

1. No. I've had both and for road use narrow track is just as good. 
2. I would take some measurements first to see how far it is out from optimum. Start with the ride height at each corner. I think the adjustable platforms and a good setup would be your best upgrade. 

3. Driving on the road with 120hp I wouldn't have thought a LSD would achieve much.

 

[nic.day]

Get the LSD - even if it does not help massively with traction - you will be able to do DONUTS!!! and that is worth the cost alone!!!

[StevehS3]

.

[PeterM]

Instead of forking out for new shocks all round you could buy some adjustable carrier 'tubes' that will make yours adjustable..about £200 for 4. Then take the car to PGM in West Sussex (if based South) where they will machine an additional groove in your shocks and fit the carrier plates. Then get PGM to 'flat floored' it, combined with a laser front and rear alignment set up and your car will handle superbly.

[BenF]

PeterM's idea seems good - not heard of that done before but makes a lot of sense.

What mileage is the car?  With 23 year old dampers, if they are high mileage, they might benefit from a refresh while you're at it (can be done by Bilstein, I think the cost is around 75 pounds per damper).

Avoid being seduced by people saying that you need expensive adjustable dampers.  The baseline Bilstein characteristic is fine.

Are you able to measure the corner weights of the car on reliable scales, as the car is now?

[JP]

Just to throw out another option, ProTech single adjustables are about £600 for a set of 4.

[GordonW]

The advice from PeterM & BenF is spot on.

[Simon.Rogers]

Obviously, I am going to counter the 2 comments above about "expensive bling dampers".

I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate the difference.

[Hooley]

Car is 23 years old, and 17,000 miles.

Dampers look to be original, and un-adjustable.

I'm looking to replace old dampers with new, and as I'm spending some money wondered what I could get with a few extra pennies. Gaz? ProTech? Bilstein?

I have always changed dampers when they get too old or long in the tooth on my other cars, having shocks from Koni FSD on a mini R56 JCW, to BC Racing on a BMW 135i and Bilstein on an Audi TT. All have improved the ride and handling.

I would always get the car 'set-up' after installation, but as I'm looking at mainly road with the occasional hill-climb or track day would relish the ability to tweak things (and probably ruin the handling)

J

[Dannyboy]

Protech - been running them on my car for quite a few years... Overall, they are a step up from the standard Bilsteins however - they do occasionally leak and have to be refurbished - nothing significant there, and the damping control / rebound whilst better than the Bilstein is nowhere near as good as supposed 'bling' dampers. 

Anyone who feels that decent dampers are bling in my opinion either drives on perfectly smooth tarmac, doesn't track the car or drives slowly enough that the dynamics of the Bilsteins are not exceeded. 

If I'd started again, I would have persevered with the Bilsteins for Longer and saved up extra for better dampers. Having driven a number of different Caterhams on Hillclimbs and Sprints when mine has been unavailable - I can verify that better dampers allow you to ride kerbs without upsetting the car, give you flexibility to dial out characteristics at the circuit due to changes in weather/ conditions - it still needs a decent base set up however, and generally gives feedback and feeling through the steering whee/ seatl on what the tyres are doing allowing you to push the boundaries further.. Nitrons were great, however the CORE digreesives fitted to Lewis Carines car as well as Ben Williams were fantastic - where in my car I'd have been really fighting to find grip/ keep it on the track, their cars were far more stable despite very similar set ups - rake, camber, caster, toe and tyre pressures. 

[Dannyboy]

LSD - as above - with 120bhp presently I would save that upgrade for another day. 

wide track - makes negligible difference..

Upgrades - some decent cams and a supersport ECU (do a wanted - there must still be some standard Supersport ECU's about on shelves where people have upgraded to Thrtottle bodies/ Emerald ECU) a lightened flywheel, as well as 52mm throttle body and some verniers to allow you to get the cam timing spot on should get you to 135-140bhp very quickly and relatively cheaply! 

[BenF]

The problem with bling dampers or many upgrades, is that people can be seduced easily by sales techniques.  I saw this myself as a professional working with racing cars, to be fair this has dropped off in the last decade as the gains are now recognised to be small.

A change in dampers can make a difference if the original dampers were knackered, or the damper change is done with a change of spring rate as well - as this is the dominant factor for ride and kerb strikes.

Anecdotal evidence does not really cut it - if you take adjustable dampers and put in some crazy settings, then of course you would expect a difference by dialling them back into the ballpark.  Simon, I did ask in a previous thread if you could provide some ride simulation results, four poster test results etc, but nothing was forthcoming.  Even if you just explain your qualifications in vehicle dynamics, I am sure that would put some of us at ease.

[Simon.Rogers]

Ben

I have not taken my car to a multi-post rig. I do have data all collected from my car. Why would I share this on an open forum?  Its my data for my business or personal use.

I do have customers that have taken their 7's and other cars I have worked on to Multimatics rig and have found that other than minor adjustments they concurred with my setups.

You know I don't have any qualifications in vehicle dynamics.  I have never claimed to have them. But I do have 15 years of experience and dyno testing.  Have worked around the world now with some of the best damper engineers in the business across a wide range of vehicle types.

There are many people in many walks of life that are not qualified on paper but experience has led them to become suitably informed about their trade.

Please carry on with your negative way of thinking.  Many many of my customers and others who are no that have driven my car or any cars fitted with a range of dampers can attest to the improvements on both road and track.

I never pressure anyone into any purchase.  We inform our customers of the options available and allow them to make any decisions they wish.  We regularly talk people out of some options that would cost more with little benefit.

I am not sure why I have been dragged into explaining myself on the forum. You clearly have pressed my button!

Its a shame as all I want to do is try to help inform people.

[BenF]

Simon, this is not about negativity, it is about objectivity.

It is very easy to be seduced into thinking an upgrade is better, if you don't have data to back it up.  This does not just apply to suspension upgrades.

When I suggested you post data/results, it was not about posting your damper curves.  They are of course your intellectual property and it's understandable that you don't want to publish this.

What I meant was results from your car - I assume you confirmed the ride was better objectively, by doing PSDs of accelerometers fitted to the car?  By showing the heave and pitch response from your logged data, a clear improvement in ride should be seen.  This makes it completely obvious that the damper change has made a difference.  The exact analogy with engines would be to post a dyno power curve, showing the results of an upgrade - you would not expect an engine builder to publish his secrets either - but you could imagine they want to show that objectively there was an improvement.

I speak from experience of running and analysing performance data of racing cars over 23 years.  I don't claim to have all the answers.  It's true, sometimes you can be surprised and find a benefit where there previously was none.  But generally I would want to see hard data to back it up.

When people do these upgrades, my impression is that they very rarely do the due diligence of dynoing the old dampers, changing to the new dampers whilst keeping the same springs, doing the corner weights and setup and then going back to baseline at the end for a proper test.  In my professional life, I've heard drivers swear blind some damper tweak was a big improvement, only for this to be negated by going back to baseline.

[Simon.Rogers]

But all that dyno work and collective data is what we have created and built.

I then use my knowledge of the cars - not just Caterham's - an enormous range of vehicles. I selct the target wheel frequencies for each use.

When you have worked on things like this you will understand that a Caterham is relatively simple.

Check out 3:40 sec to see the axle move. 

  7 dampers on this Dirt Late Model

 - I was here working at this race.

All I want to get across is that new damper technology and methods along with the finer tolerances and seal designs have significant performance advantages.  If this was not the case why are there so many differing damper brands all fighting at top level motorsport?

[BenF]

Simon, if you look at that video (3:40 as you say), you see suspension movement, but this is the kind of lower frequency movement which is mainly affected by suspension kinematics, suspension stiffness and not damping.  I'm not really sure what that proves.  However it is true that that kind of vehicle has a lot of suspension movement compared to almost any performance car or conventional racing car, which does make damping proportionately more significant as a tuning tool.

Nowadays, teams tend to define their damper curves from ride modelling and then just get a manufacturer to produce a damper to that spec, which is as light as possible, reliable and consistent.  There are a lot of damper brands out there, but that's just the sign of a mature market.  I've not seen much in the way of innovation in the last years, the last significant step was the Multimatic dampers using spool valves, as they were regarded as very consistent.

[Hooley]

I was kind of hoping for an answer of....

'For road use I would go with the bilstein adjustable shocks......but for a little more money you can get Protech which will offer you more .........

Top end is Nitron but really only if you are tracking the car a lot, or have money to spare.'

I should have said my budget is around £1k for shocks, but can push a little more if the are significant gains.

Looking at the DVA power 155+ kit next year, so would prefer to get the chassis sorted before adding power.

Cheers

Jason

[SM25T]

Very pleased with my Protech one-way adjustable dampers. They were revalved for me by ProComp Motorsport, who also supplied new springs. The whole package including delivery was less than £600 ... albeit a few years ago now. These replaced the original Bilstein dampers which had been on the car for around 16 years.

[BenF]

Jason, you have blatmail.

[Gareth H]

As suspension, particularly when a car is used on the roads (where you are not measuring performance in 1/10ths of a second) is subjective and individuals preferences vary significantly, surely the biggest benefit is that adjustable dampers can be tailored for / by the individual to suit their driving style / the roads they use.

My old 410 Exige came from Lotus on 3 way Nitrons, on the roads I drove it was too stiff (for the speeds that I was driving) a couple of clicks adjustment and the car flowed, whether this meant the car was quicker is purely academic on the road, but it was a much more pleasant ride, and the car seemed to work with the road rather than against it.

Similar situation with Core dampers that Meteor fitted to my CSR, too stiff for my taste, but being able to back off the damping meant they were pretty much perfect (for me).

Compare this to the Aero 8 that I had, on non adjustable dampers, which would quite literally get airborne when driven down a bumpy road at speed, if some adjustment has been available it would very likely still be in the garage.

If you look at motorcycles, non adjustable damping is seen as a budget option, and the first thing you would do with a new bike is set the suspension for your weight and riding style.

 

[Beagler]

Suspension springing and damping is very much a personal choice based on the use of the vehicle and road conditions it rides on. You only have to look at Formula one cars whose suspension setups cater for the characteristics of the motor racing circuits they run on. They are setup for maximum performance with little regard for driver comfort. At the other end of the spectrum is a car such as a Rolls Royce whose reputation is bolstered by it luxurious comfortable ride. So somewhere in between we with our Caterham cars have to decide what we want. Although we try all sorts of different coffee blends to find what we like, suspension setups and choice of its hardware is cost prohibited to try all the different makes and types. Some people will talk to providers and fellow owners who have suffered the pain of experiment. I am one of those who will do that then pay my money and take my choice. 

[Hooley]

I don't think Procomp are still going, their number doesn't work  and the last time the website was updated seems to be 10 years ago. 
J 

[rkeywood]

Googling Procomp Motorsport will bring up current contact details and on Facebook 

[nickh7]

In 26 years I've had 5 sets of dampers ! 

Bilsteins standard caterham with progressive springs 

Freestyle steel dampers and blade antirollbar - big step up in terms of handling and control over bumps 

Freestyle Alloy Dampers with higher rate springs off a hill climb car - night mare , teeth jarring ride , crashy, followed every camber . Lowest mileage that year 

Swapped to Nitron Street series - lovely . Great on the road , control back , good ride and handling but couldn't get enough adjustment on ride height and took the sump out . 

Nitron NTR1s - Simon Rogers  Road valving.  Again struggled with getting enough ride height and rake . Dave Gemzoe did the set up as always and suggested longer dampers.  Nitron were brilliant and following Daves careful measuring they updated the dampers.  79mm under the sump and 15mm of rake achieved. 

  Initial feeling was that it was too stiff and crashy but once they have warmed up ,10-15 mins they become more controlled.  At Daves suggestion I've adjusted the damper settings and softened them off . It's simply sublime over even the worst roads here in Yorkshire.  The confidence to drive knowing that it will handle beautifully and not be deflected over bumps and road imperfections is wonderful.  No sump strikes either which is always good 

What ever route you take make sure you get it set up properly.  The way you like it not just some off the shelf set up that some offer . That's why I will always recommend Dave at Gemzoe Motorsport , years of experience and knowledge align to him listening to how you like to drive leads to a wonderful set up which is one of the biggest upgrades you can do. 

Nick h