GoPro/Camera advice

[Dobson_justin]

I need to replace my camera for the car, and looking for advice please.
GoPro 8 looked interesting but online reviews are not great for situations kike being strapped to a car. So just looking for your experience or suggestions so I buy the right camera.
Any advice welcome!

Thanks!

[Dobson_justin]

Not sure why this posted twice! Just comment on this one please

[david nelson]

Good morning Justin 

I bought a Gopo 10 and think its great. got the gopro role bar clamp to.

I can sit reach the top start button just before the start line and it just works. 

get to the paddock and down load to my phone. it is so easy 

If your at Gurston pop over and have a look. 

 

David 

[SLR No.77]

David, I've only used an old original GoPro Hero many years ago and struggled to know whether it was actually recording, is there a light or anything that enables you to know you've actually turned the camera on?

Stu.

[robmar]

I use the remote on the GP9 that shows it recording or not, am guessing the 10 has similar

[mph]

GoPros have such terrible software in them you're going to get a range of views, and it'll probably just be a case of buy one and see how you get on  

Saying that, I run an 8 with USB power from the car, a 256gb card in it, and it'll record very happily for circa 8 hours. The 8s were rumoured to freeze every now and then, and mine has done that on occasion. Although not for a while now. Removing the battery and putting it back in resets it. The 9s were supposed to be total rubbish, and the 10s have various reported problems. I'm hoping club video expert Mr Martin drops into this thread for comment - he has a lot of GoPro experience!

All through-the-windscreen views here (track days a good example) are filmed with the GoPro 8 (and an external, Lavalier, mic under the dash to get better sound). 
 

Sorry that might not help you with a decision though!

--Mark

[ptr_drvr]

I have had a few over the years and currently have a 9. As mph says above, the software has always let GoPro down I feel. The app control is clunky and slow, but generally i've never had any issues. The camera saves longer videos in ~8 minute chunks in separate files, so even if you're doing a single take of something (a trackday stint for example), there's still wok to be done afterwards stitching them together.

I believe GoPro now do a charge-through battery door, but I bought a chinese brand one which enables me to keep the battery door closed and still have it plugged in to power. You can run the camera like this sans battery, but I leave it in, just in case the cable is knocked out etc.

I realise now I don't have any of my recent footage on YouTube, so maybe i'll upload that after work and post a link for you to see the camera in action.

[DerekH]

Hi Justin,

I have a 9 with the Media Mod to use external usb power and microphone. Without an external microphone the wind noise causes a lot of clipping

I also have the 256Gb card to can record 8 hour in 4K.

Mine occasionally locks up requiring a battery out reset which requires taking the camera out of the media mod.

9 has a front display and flashing LED to let you know its recording.  

The Insta 360 is a similar price and has a front and back camera which the software stitches together for you.

If you use a usb power supply from the car you do get issues with control from your phone. The noise generated by the switch mode power supply in the 12 volt to USB converter interferes with the GoPro Wifi connection.

When they work they are great. I've lost a few recording to it recording in time lapse.

For editing I use Davinci Resolve. The amateur version is free and very powerful.

Here is a short 2 minute example 

Regards

DerekH

[ptr_drvr]

Derek, I just learned of DaVinci Resolve this week (maybe late to the party). Did you find it easy enough to get used to working with?

[Richard Price]

Justin,

As discussed at the weekend, both Tom and I are using GoPro Hero4 blacks.

We only ever record at 720p, but at 60fps. 720p still looks great on a 40" TV, but keeps file sizes (so download times) more manageable.

We're using GoPro Smart remotes for remote control.

In my opinion, using a remote microphone is an essential feature. We both use a cheap stereo microphone, but mounted under the dash to pick up engine sound without being drowned out by wind noise (I find that the sound is often almost as useful as the vision)

I've found that battery life is inadequate for a days competition (particularly if you forget to turn it off [including WIFI] between runs). I normally charge the camera between runs from a USB socket I have under the dash.

I find watching video from many of the current crop of GoPros irritates me, where it looks like the camera is mounted on a swinging bracket. I find it difficult to concentrate on watching what is going on. I suspect it can be disabled in image stabilisation settings.

As you've seen from my clips, I use a narrow angle of view so that I can see enough of the sides of the track, but no more than I actually need to see.

I now only use either standard Iphone software on the phone, or GoPro Player, to trim individual clips.

[Richard Price]

Oh, at 720p 60fps, dual driving, a 32gb card is big enough for half a season of hillclimbs.

[Richard Price]

Oh, at 720p 60fps, dual driving, a 32gb card is big enough for half a season of hillclimbs.

[Richard Price]

Oh, at 720p 60fps, dual driving, a 32gb card is big enough for half a season of hillclimbs.

[mph]

#10 Re the current GoPros and 'Hypersmooth' stabilisation, you can turn it off, yes. It makes you feel sea sick watching it swing from side to side, doesn't it? 

With a decent mount (I use SmallRig clamps) it's solid without Hypersmooth on.

, GoPro 8, no stabilisation.

[DerekH]

I use a Mac for a desktop PC and there is a Mac version, how I got there.

It has a lot of features, very powerful.  Easy enough to import you media, multiple GoPro 8 minute segments join them together add titles, music, blur out and track the speedo and export to YouTube.  YouTube tutorials are plentiful. Lots of keyboard shortcut to learn, When you are used to it editing gets quicker.

After recording a blat now I can take an hour down to 20 minutes finished video in around 30 minutes. 

As its free if you don't like it you've not lost anything.

Regards

DerekH

[Purplemeanie]

All the above make very valid points Justin, but I'll throw a few comments in too. Seeing as you're replacing an existing camera you'll know all about cameras on Sevens anyway, but I'll throw in how I use each camera in case its a scenario that affects your bying decision. I hope I'm not teaching anyone to suck eggs, that's not my intention. It's also worth pointing out to others who may not be as familiar with video in a Seven, that there are almost as many good ways of doing video on a Seven as there are people who do it. Everyone has typically found their favourite way of doing it... none are wrong per se. The subject is way bigger than a single BlatChat post, but I hope I can add something to the discussion.

This is a really tricky subject, and is very dependent on what sort of scenarios you're thinking of. I use different cameras for different occasions, and have over 25 action cameras now! Don't judge me!

For me there are five main scenarios:

1. Short blasts (short outings or track)
2. Long runs (touring not racing) where I'm really interested in making the best video I can
3. Long runs (touring not racing) where I'm casually recording
4. Items where I'm talking to the camera making a commentary on something like a YouTube video.
5. Taking video around the paddock or blat-assembly

As Mark (mph) mentions though... the software on these devices isn't always great. It can be unreliable and the user interfaces can be a pain. You also have to factor in over-heating - something that's got worse in recent cameras.

So, I have used and own: GoPros (from the 3 through to the 10, Max and Session), Insta360 (Go, GoII, RS, X2), Sony (ZV100), DJI (Action, Action2, Osmo, Osmo+, DJI Mic, OM1 to 5 and most of the Drones from the Phantom 3 through to the Mini 3 Pro). I've also tried DSLR's and MILC's to record the above scenarios too. This isn't meant to be a flex in any way, I'm just a bit of a nerd when it comes to video - as are others on this thread too :-)

In terms of what works best, I can only say what I've found in these categories:

Software reliability: I know lots of people have problems with the latest GoPro's, but its not really something I've suffered with. They do crash sometimes ( and will need the battery removing to reset them - which is a pain if you've got a harness on and/or can't reach it from your seat). As I say though, I haven't found them too bad and have definitely got better with more recent firmware on everything from the 8, 9, 10 and Max. The DJI Action 2s are definitely more reliable here though.

Hardware reliability: overheating is the main worry here I think. An action cam is usually pretty robust and I've found the GoPros to be really good at taking knocks etc. In terms of the overheating the GoPro10's and DJI Action2's are really bad if you leave them standing around. GoPro even admitted that something like 99% of video shot on their cameras is for less than 2 minutes... so why worry about overheating! There's a really good recent video by a guy called David Manning on YouTube about it (

 ), so go and check that out for more details. However, if you have either camera in the air flow of a Seven then I haven't seen them overheat - the air cools them enough. I've run them for hours and no overheating (4k/25). If you plan on putting them in your footwell or engine bay for instance then you may only get a few minutes of record time. It's also really important to keep the framerate down (that seems to be more important than resolution, though that does matter to some extent too). I'll talk more about frame rates and resolutions below. I also power my action cameras from external power sources when I'm recording in a car, but also make sure I keep the battery of the device in too.

User interface: The DJI user interfaces are better than the GoPro interfaces. The later GoPros are much better than the older ones though. The Insta360 interfaces are probably nearer to the DJI in usability but they often have tiny screens that can be tricky to see (IMHO). However, I only tend to use the cameras in a few modes and I find I can set up each mode on the GoPro and switch easily between them - either on the camera or more often on the phone app.

My Setups..

General

I record all my videos at 4k/25 - I do 4k so I can crop in and stabilize when I'm editing and I do 25fps because I don't then get problems with banding or beat frequencies with UK lighting - we can get into the details of that if anyone's interested but I do it just to reduce the risk of it being a problem. I post videos at 1080p/25 but will soon probably go to posting 4k. As mentioned above, 720p is fine for TVs but for newer TVs and tablets etc, 1080p is a minimum - IMHO :-)

I always power my action cameras from a battery or from the car battery through a 12v to USB adapter. I use the 3rd party GoPro side doors that have slots in them for USBC power (as mentioned by someone else too).

For cameras that have some of the car in shot I will turn off stabilisation in the camera (I can add it in editing if I need it). If the car is wholly in shot (looking at me in the cabin) then stabilisation can be on but doesn't have to be. If its shot without the car in the shot (front grille for instance) then I turn on stabilisation. This can be a problem though as the camera stabilisation often doesn't track the scenary properly when going round corners.. I may just turn off the stabilisation here too and do it in post.

Don't bother trying to use audio from an action cam that is anywhere near the air flow of the car. Use another device, and phone can work well there but there are lots of small recorders you can use from people like Zoom (not the conferencing Zoom), Rode, DJI etc.

So for my different scenarios:

1. Short Blasts

I tend to stick a GoPro 10 on the rollover bar facing forwards. I like to have the camera above the bar - that way I don't have the rear view mirror getting in the way of the sight line (where your eyes are looking when you're looking at the road ahead). I know others prefer to have the camera below the height of the roll over bar, but not me. I use a manfrotto clamp to attach the camera - its really sturdy and can be removed really quickly.

I may also add a camera looking back at me as I drive - that would be a GoPro 10 too. That would be mounted to the inside of the windscreen - usually with a GoPro flat sticky that is tucked away behind the rear-view mirrow. I then use a really small tripod head to go from the sticky to the camera.

I use GoPro's because there are apps on the App Store that can control multiple GoPros by Bluetooth.. and I can start and stop them all at once. The GoPro remotes can do that too now and I sometimes do that instead.

For audio I use DJI Mics clipped to driver (and passenger) to pick up speech and I have another mic sat somewhere out of the wind just picking up engine tone. 

2. Long Runs that I'm really interested about the video

I typically have one camera on top of roll-over bar, one facing driver/passenger and a roving camera mounted to one of the front grille, rear wing or bodywork. All will be powered externally. All will be left running for the whole run - though I stop and start them again when I stop for a bio-break or fuel. Always check for bugs on lenses at this point too! Running multiple cameras means I have options to cut to and from them when I'm editing. It also means that if I get a bug strike or a battery/power go bad on me, or a memory card fill up, then I have other options to make the video from.

Audio is like in 1 which is synced in post - Final Cut Pro.

3. Long Runs that I'm not so fussed about the video

In this case I'll usually put a 360 camera on the roll-over bar, power it externally and leave it running. I can then chose my "shot" when I'm editing (front/back/side/pan etc). I like the Insta360 cameras better than the GoPro Max BUT the GoPro Max records for longer and I like to just leave my cameras running and sort out the video when I get home. I find that if I'm playing with a camera on a run then I'm not enjoying the drive as much... so I leave the camera running and have a big memory card in each of them. Some of the Insta360 cameras will only record a max of 30 mins, so they get ruled out for long runs. The long selfie sticks on the Insta360's are great fun though and their "stick removal" software is great.

I also leave my cameras running because on a long run something will often happen and you wished you'd had the camera recording. Some cameras allow a pre-record feature that records a few seconds before you press record as well but in a Seven its not always that easy to find the record button (however you do that) when you're driving. These pre-record features will hammer the battery though... almost like doing a full record, so beware of that. I've had birds dive-bomb the car, sheep run out in front me and recently an amusing incident bumping a car that all would have been missed if I hadn't had the cameras running all the time.

I might rig up audio as in 1 but sometimes just go with whatever the camera mic picks up (and assume I'm going to junk the audio and just put music over the top).

4. Items talking to Camera as the driver

I tend to use a GoPro 10 here attached to the inside of the windscreen and looking at me or me+passenger. I find the DJI Action 2 is bigger (with the additional battery bit) than the GoPro and so obscures my view a bit more - I also like to remotely control the recording and that's a bit easier with the GoPro remote - though both have good phone apps... however, powering on your phone, launching the app and connecting to the camera to press record takes longer than using a GoPro remote. Sometimes I use the audio mod on the GoPro10 and have something like the DJI mic plugged in but often I want the camera to be looking at me from being mounted on the windscreen (in the center for me and passenger, passenger side if its just me) and I don't like the audio mod because it make the install too bulky - especially with the GoPro 10 as they're now larger than previous GoPros. You can get away with using the audio from the GoPro for these pieces to camera as long as the camera is out of the wind flow.

For audio here I'll have a DJI Mic clipped to me if I have the door on, and a cheek mic plugged into the DJI Mic if I have the doors off. With all these audio devices running I just sync the audio together in Final Cut Pro when I'm editing. The Rode Wireless II's are also great mics for this purpose but I now like the DJI Mic better here (also... I also found the Rode Wireless II's would start to clip the audio if I had the doors off and on full blat). With a cheek mic I can record good spoken audio even with the doors off and at full blat - when I can't even hear myself talk and yet I can still record good spoken audio - if a bit shouty!.

5. Walking around paddock/assembly-point

I tend to use my iPhone for this sort of stuff now. If I'm doing a "top job" for the Club then I'll take a Cannon mirrorless camera (MILC) but iPhone's are pretty good. I use a DJI OM5 gimble if I really want smooth walking shots on the phone... but thats a bit overkill. You have to be careful with action cameras in this scenario because their focus ranges aren't so good... so walking around a paddock with a Gopro and trying to "VLOG" with it will often result in you being out of focus. 

For audio I use the DJI Mic again. They're brilliant.

And of course if I'm doing something like the Speed Championship lunch presentations then I'll take a couple of MILCs and use GoPros and 360 cams as backups. I'll also take a lot of radio mics. along with paracetamol for the inevitable headache after doing a one-man shoot! :-)

So that was a bit of a brain dump... sorry! 

In summary:

• GoPro 8 is a good camera, 9 is better and 10 is better still
  • the front video screens on the 9 and 10 are really useful
  • 10 has much better slow-mo modes if that's your thang!
  • audio is much better on 10 than previous cameras (but see point below)
  • detachable lens cover on the 10 is also really good when a camera can be hit by bugs and stones (8 and 9 have fixed lens glass covers)
• DJI Action 2 is as good as a 10 but there are pro's and con's to each
• The GoPro "Bones" (it's a stripped down 10) camera might be coming to the UK at some point. It's not cheap but it has the option of having a hard wired record start/stop. So it could be easily wired into the ignition so it would start recording at the start of a run and stop at the end... no need to remember to hit record.
• Don't expect to get any internal audio from an action cam when fitted to a Seven in the air flow
• 360 cameras are now becoming a really good way of doing video on a Seven but you need to get one of the newer ones if you want decent results (but there's A LOT MORE faffiing about needed once you've done your recording)

Finally if you're in the market for a top of the range camera then don't forget that GoPro release new ones each September time. They are due to release a Hero 11 and probably a new 360 camera this year. There is also rumour of a high end camera that is coming from them this year too (they already released a bare-bones camera that some were hoping would be a new Session, but it isn't, so don't hold your hopes up for a new Session any time soon).

John

[andy_harries]

If you want a cheap option just for reviewing a run up a hill climb or sprint then I can recommend a £50 option from amazon that I used last season. Comes with mounts, spare batteries etc all in for the price. Obviously nowhere as good as a go pro, but if, like in my case, you're watching it back on the screen straight after a run to work out why the time is so much slower than everyone else, its a good bit of kit for the money!

Alan B uses an old iPhone for the same reason which also works well, and with much less faffing than other options.

[Purplemeanie]

Sorry to be a pain folks but in case any of you nodded off while reading my long post above, I added a summary at the bottom of it with some key thoughts :-)

John

[Jonathan Kay]

Still awake here... that could be a very useful Technical Guide...

Jonathan

[Alan Bowler]

Old iphone 5, mic is standard earphones in boot. Not the best solution but cost me almost nothing. Can set it recording in the paddock and trim on phone after a run. 

Sound is bad as I forget to wrap the mic in a rag.

(set it to 720, its defaulted to 360)

AB

[Dobson_justin]

Wow, amazing responses thanks!  So much great information that helps a lot, as I am a bit of a philistine when it comes to this subject. But am now an instant expert, thanks again all. 
See you at Harewood.

[Richard Price]

John/Purplemeanie,

Gosh. your post took some reading.... :-)

For sprint/hillclimb use (as this post is in the "Speed" section), our primary requirement is to be able to quickly and easily review the run that we've just done. So its important to catch the information we need using hardware alone, so talk of using a separate sound recorder and post production is inappropriate in this instance.

I normally review a each run soon after the run, often simply on my phone. I'm looking to see how I can improve my next run. I started out using a bullet cam and a separate recorder at just 640x480 resolution, which is actually quite adequate. Actually, I feel that sound without wind noise is far more useful that image quality.

Justin,

Something else you may wish to think about is using some analysis software along with one of the GPS enabled GoPros. RaceTechnology offer a standalone GoPro package:-

https://www.race-technology.com/gb/racing/products/video/video_gopro-only

'not as useful as a full datalogging package like I use, but may still be useful to understand your performance.

[Wrightpayne]

Alan,

I think I asked before but forgot the reply, how do you attach the iphone?

Ian

[mph]

I must confess, I hadn't noticed what section the post was in 

If you're just after something for analysing a drive in the champs Justin, then maybe a phone you already have is the best/simplest option? For attaching to the car, securely, how about a PeakDesign phone holder with a SmallRig clamp.

For analysis on-the-cheap you could do worse than RaceChrono (17 quid, IIRC, versus the 59 quid for the GoPro option mentioned in #22). If you want to get better GPS data for a more accurate view, I'd recommend splashing out on an external, bluetooth, GPS device like the SkyPro XGPS160. It works seamlessly with RaceChrono.

Heading more towards vbox territory but without quite the horrendous price tag, is it worth looking at the Garmin Catalyst? (never used it, couldn't tell you if it was any good).

[Purplemeanie]

Hi All, I must also confess that I only realized this was a Speed related post once I was most of the way through writing my last response. But hopefully its still useful to some.

Mark (mph) makes some good suggestions I think - he and I regularly discuss cameras/tech in cars and I know he creates some great video and analysis from them.

If a dedicated camera is still what you're looking for I can offer the following further thoughts on action cameras...

Firstly a general thought: The GoPro 8,9 and 10 don't need a cage to attach them to anything. They have the GoPro"prongs" built in. The DJI Action 2 has magnetic mounting but I probably wouldn't trust it to attach to a roll-over bar. The DJI Action 2 mounts (non-magnetic) are good though. The lack of a cage on the newer GoPros really helps when handling the devices (IMHO). However, the battery doors are a fiddle and getting the sd-cards in and out of them requires patience and decent nails!

Second point, the GPS sampling speed of recent GoPros is higher than it used to be. It's now 10 times per second (UPDATED: thanks Mark-mph), so its able to show better location at higher speed. It still has accuracy problems, but its now higher termporal accuracy and low spatial accuracy! I haven't done high resolution GPS testing on the GoPro 10 so can't comment on how accurate the GPS is now... but i hear its better than it used to be. 

So I guess (as you know) you have two options for reviewing video from an action cam quickly and here are some of my thoughts:

1. Review on device.

• The GoPro 9 and 10 have the advantage as they have bigger screens.
• The GoPro 10 has better slow-mo modes and you might consider recording a run in slow-mo to be able to review bits of the run at 200fps (for UK PAL mode), for instance, and really slow it down as you run through that section. Newer phones can do this now of course too.
• Reviewing footage recorded in slow-mo on the camera allows you to play at normal speed or 8x slower. This feature seems to work the same for GoPro 8,9 and 10.
• A usable 1080p @ 200 fps slow-mo is available on 8,9 and 10 (but can go to 2.7k on 10)

 

2. Review on a Phone/Tablet

• Remember that higher frames rates and resolution will create larger files and so take longer to transfer to the viewer
• If you want to see video as big as possible then you can run the GoPro Quik app on an iPad and transfer your video to it - laptops obviously work too but you'll obviously need a cable to the camera or take out the sd-card and plug it into the laptop.
• GoPro 10 uses the newer GP2 processor (its a specialized GoPro CPU for imaging) which means the front screen video is less choppy and the user interface is snappier, it also boots up slightly faster. This is also what gives the GoPro 10 better slow-mo framerates.
• The faster processor of the 10 also means that video transfers to the phone/tablet are slightly faster with a GoPro 10 over 9 and 9 over 8.
• A 340MB (60 seconds, 4k/25, HEVC) file took this long to transfer wirelessly from camera to phone (iPhone 13 Pro):
  • GoPro10 - 13secs
  • GoPro9 - 17 secs
  • GoPro8 - 25 secs
  • GoPro7 - 25 secs
• Probably the fastest way to transfer files from a camera to a phone is to take the sd-card out and plug it into a card reader on the phone/tablet. Though this is always a tricky operation and if you're in the outdoors then I'd be worried about dropping the sd-card and not finding it again!
• Using live review on the GoPro Quik app on phone/tablet (wireless connection needs Bluetooth and Wifi enabled - though it creates a private Wifi, so no need to be connected to a Wifi network) gives a low resolution view of the video but is the fastest way to look at video from the action camera. You can scrub backwards and forwards quickly and then hit play at that point. This gives a much larger view on your phone than you would have on the camera itself though
• If you want to do more than a quick playback then you have to download the footage to the phone/tablet (see wireless download speeds above).
• GoPro Live review does not allow you to change the speed of slow-mo footage when you’re looking at it on the phone. You have to download the video to the phone and then you can change the speed when editing... and only when you have a GoPro subscription. Downloading slow-mo footage to your phone (tested on iPhone) and then transferring to the default photos app on my phone will play the footage back at the slow speed only… i.e. 8x slower than normal speed.
• Summary of that last point… working with slow-mo when you want quick review on phone/tablet is tricky.

If you’d like any other tests or comparisons doing then I can have a go.