CSR engine long-term maintenance / refresh

[BenF]

Hello,

Apart from usual servicing, just wondering when the CSR engines (200/230/260) require a refresh.

I know that with some of the other highly tuned engines, like the original R500K, a refresh is on the cars with significant mileage.

What are people's experience with the CSR and who have people use for any heavier maintenance work?

Just wondering as there are a few CSRs available at the moment with 30k+ miles and wondering if buying one of these cars means expecting some engine work in the near future.

Ben

[David_Long]

The CSR engines are not particularly stressed and are well built Cosworth units. So there's no reason that they shouldn't last the life of the car. Regular oil changes and perhaps big end shell replacement every few years if it's a track car, but that's about it.

[BenF]

Thanks David!

[David aka Blue7]

I am on my 3rd CSR and my experience is that the engines actually seem to improve, the longer I kept them.  The Cosworth powered CSR is no longer made so IMHO the cars are a worthwhile investment but try before you buy because there are bound to be a few "challenges" out there.

David

[BenF]

Hi David,

Is there anything specific to look for when buying a CSR?  I know we have a general 7 buying guide on here, but I have not seen any advice on specific things you might look for - i.e. known problem areas where you'd want to specifically check.

IIRC from years ago on BC, oil level was supposed to be very critical on CSRs and it was important to keep them topped up and allow a bit of oil to go into the catch tank - rather than having the level too low.

Have not heard of any specific problems though, i.e. in the way people used to focus on some areas with other 7s, .e.g HGFs with K-series, de Dion ears, chassis corrosion 94-99 etc.

Not at all afraid of spending good money on maintenance but would like to avoid something with a big bill clearly coming.

[David Brown]

Having run one, I would suggest the main area to focus on would be the condition of the suspension bushes, components and underside (grot traps) for corrosion. 
On further thought, check the prop shaft if it has boxed in grease nipples, have they been greased or are they sealed for life like later models. Guess how I know!

[7 wonders of the world]

there was a thread a while back regarding rear suspension links and an upgraded item avialable form either DPR or BOSS ISTR.l

[David aka Blue7]

Ben,

David Brown (above) certainly had considerable recent experience with matters relating to CSR clutch problems and problems encountered with engine removal, which were well documented here or may have been posted on Chitchat.

Personally speaking I have had no specific CSR problems, they have mostly been standard problems that could relate to all 7's.

The engine is typical Cozzy, strong and reliable and not over stressed.  The engine oil  top up procedure is not really a problem, I used the CC system of topping up a bit at a time until some spills into the catch tank with my first two CSR's but with the present one I can actually see the oil level on the dipstick so top it up as normal.  The Garage that services my car adopt a procedure of topping up while the engine is running, which I haven't tried.  

Most CSR's have now had the fix to the throttle problem that caused 'kangarooing'.  One niggle I had with the first two was problems with the horn which is / was in the steering wheel boss.  The brass connector is prone to breaking as is the plastic dowel that cancels the indicators.  On my present CSR CC gave up on fitting a horn switch in the centre of the boss, the button is still fitted but is not wired up.  The horn button is now a standard button on the dash.

On the first two cars I had problems with front cycle wings breaking free from the stays because of the carp glue that CC uses.  On my present CSR the first mod was to reinforce the glue with sikaflex and big head fasteners with cable ties so no problems this time.

There is an 'O' ring seal inside the bell housing that can cause problems with oil leaks, my first CSR had to be returned under warranty for Cosworth to replace it, which is an engine out job, so check for oil leaks. 

I have not heard of a CSR 230?

One irritating problem is 'front' tyre size in that Avon no longer make CR500 195/45 R15 78W and have replaced it with a wider diameter ZZS 195/50 R15 82W.  The increase in diameter from 45 to 50 can cause the tyres to make contact with the cycle wings but some people have not had problems other than a 'snug' fit while others have modified the stay attachment bracket by elongating the bolt hole which allows the wing to be raised slightly.  My fix has been to stock up on CR500 195/45's and trust the car will outlive me 

The CR500 195/45 are not easy to get hold of but still seem to be made?

If I had space I would probably buy another one, I have a pal who has 3!  The early ones actually had more boot space but on the later models the chassis struts encroach into the boot more.  I did consider the new CSR  but it doesn't seem to be available in the UK and more importantly to me, it doesn't have a Cosworth engine.  When I bought my first CSR, I asked what the initials actually stood for.  Nick Potter advised that it originally stood for Cosworth Seven Racer but Cosworth objected to the use of their name so CC reverted to Caterham Seven Racer.  Someone here has a better answer 'Comfortable Superior Ride' 

David

[BenF]

Thanks for all that advice!  There is nothing there which really worries me, all these kind of problems are pretty much what I would expect to deal with.

IIRC there were three models: CSR200, 230 and 260.  It seems like you mainly see the 200 and 260, but I am pretty sure the 230 exists.

Will just have to keep an eye out, will only be back in March, David Barfoot's car did look great but looks like UK Sports Cars have already sold it (sent them a mail and never got a reply)

[7 wonders of the world]

Heres the rear suspension:

https://www.caterhamlotus7.club/forum/techtalk/broken-csr-rear-upright-any-experiences

 

[BenF]

Thanks, that is a very interesting thread.  Good to know.

[David Brown]

The problem I had with the clutch was because I was supplied with the wrong "updated" one when I replaced it when I had the engine, gearbox and diff out after my propshaft failed due to it not being greased as the grease nipples were behind a blanking plate held on with 34 rivets. Not mentioned in the service procedure. 

[BenF]

Hi David, so how are people greasing their propshaft then?  Removing and replacing the blanking plate each time?

[ScottR400D]

Most (?) of them are sealed for life now. 

[Croc]

 

Long time owner of a CSR here with a LOT of track time on it plus building a new CSR currently.  Its been a very reliable car for me.  I do follow a rigorous maintenance schedule of my own design given its extensive track time.  A lot of the problems I have faced would be seen on regular non-CSR Caterham models.

My list of things that went wrong:

• 6 speed gearbox self destructed when layshaft popped out of place.  
• Alternator fried
• suspension bushings have needed replacing a few times.  I use the polybush ones now.  Possibly this is from me mostly using 13 inch wheels (I converted from the regular 15 inch wheels) and slicks on track?
• wheel bearings.  First set went at 1000 miles.  Up to my 6th set now.  Suspect this is my fault from clipping curbs (or is it kerbs?) on track plus one of the tracks I go to has a high speed 15 deg banking
• fuel pump replacement twice.  The adhesive goo/sealant (recommended by Caterham) around the top of the tank where the fuel pump drops in has a tendency to be eroded by the fuel over time.  I usually find that out when it leaks
• usual fun of getting used to finding the right oil level with catch tank overflows when you get it wrong
• clutch replacement along with the various O seals within the bellhousing
• watch for the diff mount bolts coming undone.  I check these every year during winter and sometimes I have found 1 bolt that has untorqued itself.  
• In moderate to heavy rain, I can get water down into the spark plug wells which manifests through the engine missing.  Particularly number 1 cylinder for this.  Dry it all out and its back to normal.
• Post #8 where David refers to the tyre change from CR500 to ZZS/ZZR was a bit of a faff for me but once done is fine.  I think the ZZS is a better tyre than the CR500 in the wet and dry after much back to back driving.  

Given its usage I consider that pretty impressive.  

The engine has stayed strong through all.  I don't over rev and have been always up on its maintenance.  Feels as strong as day 1.  Its not a stressed build and you will drive it off the torque curve as thats the fastest way.

The only concern I have is the lack of Caterham support on parts for the CSR.  I have bought some of the Titan produced bespoke components over the years to keep in the garage e.g. rear hubs, etc.,  but now I have the ability to remanufacture most bits locally if I really get stuck.  

Sensational car to drive.  Fastest thing I have ever driven point to point on a road.  Best ride of any car I have ever driven.  Until you drive one you don't realize.  

Cheers

mike

[Andrew 21 Edney]

Hi Mike, fantastic post... only detail missing was your mileage. I realise track work will not be representative of road use, but it would be interesting to know if your CSR had done a few thousand miles of tens of thousands.

[BenF]

Yes thanks a lot Mike, brilliant!

Going to slicks does tend to increase grip a lot (depending on compound, approx 15-20%) with the loads also increasing correspondingly, so this might explain the increase suspension bush wear.

All this talk has got me itching to get one, just need to get now back to the UK and start looking.  BTW, if anyone knows any of the CSRs currently on Pistonheads (or is selling one of them - most seem to be through dealers), would be interested to hear from you (PM me).

 

[BenF]

Also just to say, this is what partly attracted me to 7 ownership in the first place, that BC is such a useful source of info and there is so much support within the club

[David aka Blue7]

#15 Thanks for posting that information Mike

As a matter of interest have you retained the same ECU or did you replace it with an unlocked one that can be remapped?  I did have a problem misfire at 60 mph with my present CSR, which CC eventually agreed to it being an ECU problem.  They are locked so it went back to CC under warranty, all they did was copy and paste the map from another CSR on to my ECU but it cured the problem.  However, I have read of owners who have replaced their ECU's with an unlocked ECU so they can remap it. 

Not that I wish to remap my CSR, if it ain't broke ... but a few years ago a guy from Premiere Power wanted to sell me a new ECU with their own mapping for a CSR because he said the Cosworth mapping was 'carp'.  I didn't buy it because the price was considerably expensive and at the back of my mind was that I couldn't imagine Cosworth being anything other than professional when it comes to mapping ECU's for their engines.

David

[David Brown]

Ben, PM sent. 

[Croc]

 

#16 Hi Andrew - How did I miss mileage?  Apologies.   I have 17,000 track miles and another 5,000 road miles.   It is worked hard.  Not sure what the right equation of track miles to road miles is but I work on a 3:1 basis for engine refresh stuff in my other cars.  I do not over-rev it as I found you do not have to for lap times - there is just no advantage to going high in the rev range.  Its too dangerous to use on roads around me anymore so it is now exclusively track usage.  It is a standard spec CSR260 Superlight which was the-then label for what they would now brand today as a CSR260R.  

 

#19 Hi David - I still have the standard ECU.  Yes it is locked but I know the password for it.  I have never remapped it despite me knowing it to be "carp" as you rightly point out.  As it was explained to me, the engine came from Cosworth, however, the tune was supposedly done by SBD and Caterham together with a rich "safe" tune being specified.   This was all hearsay but I have heard it from enough people around the Caterham/SBD orbit that I believe it is likely true.  Once my new CSR is finished (next year...hopefully), I plan to give my current CSR a full refresh including sorting out the tune.  The new CSR is using an unlocked MBE ECU from SBD (gee it was expensive!) and will be tuned by a local engine builder specialist experienced in Duratecs.   I met the Premier Power guys in November as they share the same building with TFL Racing - I am definitely considering their CSR ECU option for my refresh.  They had a CSR in the workshop getting the full treatment while I was there - looked to be a club member based on the sticker on the back of the car.  

 

#17  Good luck with the shopping Ben!  Drive a CSR back to back with a deDion car over the same roads - you will be impressed.  

 

[David aka Blue7]

#21 Mike, many thanks for that information, very much appreciated 

David

[David Brown]

Blue, how many miles on your car now? Do you know what happened to your previous?

[David aka Blue7]

David, I have 15,000 miles on the clock.  There is a member here Stephan Heth, who keeps a register of all CSR's produced and I have a vague memory of him telling me my first CSR went to Europe and was resprayed orange but I don't know where the second one is.  There is a useful thread here

CSR Register

https://www.lotus7.club/forum/chitchat/csr-register-first-evaluation-results-public

 

 

 

[Alan Reeves]

Some interesting stuff and my addition from when I had my CSR260:

I did not like the high revving of a 3.62 and 6 speed box so I out a 3.14 in !! Sounds drastic but it gives the same top gear ratio as a 3.62 and 5 speed. A lot more relaxed and great 3 and 4 for country blats.

I did 13k miles in 3 summers and sold at c20k to buy back a car I had built not because I didnt like the CSR. Oil use was .5lt per 1000 miles if I remember correctly and hence always checked before a blat.

When i got it the kangaroos were a shock, the Two Steves had access to the ECU and dialed the issue out, I could pull away on tick over after !

Great cars