620 Cooling - Radiator Bypass Loop

[CtrMint]

Well said Scott!  I certainly won't be trekking across the Irish sea to fight the battle.  It will be a battle too as Oakmere and I suspect other franchises are more interested in their relationship with CC than supporting the customer!  

[ScottR400D]

Doctor, I wasn’t replying to you, I think what you’ve done looks good and I agree that Mark’s idea was well worth consideration. 

I was responding to post 72, 42 was a typo. 

I cant see how its fair to expect an owner to spend a fortune in testing Caterham’s ‘upgrade’ when it’s clearly not a solution to the issue, just another hack to reduce a symptom. 

 

[CtrMint]

My various elbows arrived from Viper Performance

 

[CtrMint]

And the rest, various types of flexible hose from Gates and Viper.

[ChrisC]

Just to be clear, my wording is about "Fit for Purpose" and the way I have successfully had cars exchanged and/or received my money back in the past.  Not about the modifications planned or undertaken.  

I think the solution Doctor has created looks to be the correct solution to the problem.  But I would not modify any car that I purchased that is under warranty, especially if it has problems to be resolved, mainly because my pockets aren't deep enough. 

 

 

[CtrMint]

Chris, 

I think you are seeing my car is a one off, and my complaint as such.  This couldn't be further from the truth, in fact the rest of the car is well built and well prepared, good example of what can vary.  The issue is a design flaw, all 620 have this problem.  I guess some owners just ignore it, others those active in the thread are aware of it and equally concerned about the thermal shock. 

I've communicated extensively with Oakmere and CC, neither really seem that arsed with it.  Consider this, if Oakmere really wanted to look at the problem or CC for that matter, there's plenty of cars sat on the forecourt etc they could look at.  They don't need mine, they don't need me travel across the Irish sea, during C19 etc etc, they just don't care.  

We gots your money end of story.

 

[CtrMint]

I have tried Fit For Purpose, it was formally rejected by Oakmere Motor Group.

I have approach the Ombudsman, Oakmere have not signed up.. funny that!   The cost of the vehicle puts it outside small claims court.... where next?

[CtrMint]

A quick tidy of the garage, everything to hand, all set for tomorrow.  

[Shortshift]

Good luck with this Mark.  It will be very interesting to see how you get on and whatteh results are.

James

[Mark w]

Measure twice , cut once ! 

[CtrMint]

Again, thanks for the support and wishes....  I'll try and post on instagram through the day if you want to keep updated.

https://www.instagram.com/caterham7diaries/

[Doctor]

All the best of luck!!

[CtrMint]

Finished about 3 pm today, having started around 8 am. Do we have an alternate cooling solution................ No

We started this morning and our initial impressions, mine and my helper (yes another Mark) was this was going to be incredibly difficult to fit. I think we must have spent an hour considering routing options. But we eventually came up with a plan and went for it. The solution was tight but in the end, actually looked pretty dam good. We had clearance of all components, nothing rubbing, nothing under tension and joints sat perfectly. We felt pretty happy with the result. Way better than expected. We did have to remove the intercooler, but that was pretty easy.

After filling the car back up with coolant we had a leak off the hot side immediately after the rail above the exhaust manifold, it was clear the T clamps I'd bought, understanding they provided a more even clamping force were leaking. We quickly swapped them over for standard worm drive clamps, no leaks! Great.

During the refill of coolant I had a momentary loss of concentration as we were confidently chatting, this resulted in an overflow of the coolant bottle.  I was filling through a funnel, not watching the bottle as we chatted. Stupid I know, this caused coolant to run down and over the bell housing etc. We also lost some coolant down the rear of the rad when removing some of the hoses. I washed the rad through with water. Why do I mention this.... well.

We started up the engine, and after a few seconds, it made a noise, not a normal noise, not a noise I was comfortable with or expecting.   It wasn't the usual squark from a slipping belt, it didn't sound good. I quickly switched off the engine and we looked at each other. Our natural conclusion was that the PRT wasn't working as expected. Mark thought possibly the pump was cavitating, his words not mine. He runs a plant company so deals with high-pressure, pumps etc, so has plenty of experience.  Was the PRT incorrectly plumbed, we didn't think so, was the bypass too restrictive?

At this point, my confidence and commitment faltered.  Did I want to run it again as we tried to work out where the noise was coming from and why?  Nope.   

It took about 30 mins to pull off the PRT hoses and replumb the original hoses.  We restarted the car and the noise was still there but much less frequent and reduced.   I stopped the car again.  We were both scratching our heads.  We doubled checked the area around the cruciform, the belts and pulleys.  There was no reason that we could see no sign of damage, though we weren't sure where the noise was coming from.  I guess I didn't let it run long enough to really work it out.  I guess I should have.

I then had a thought, was it the Sadev box, the clutch etc.  I don't normally start the car without being sat in it with the clutch depressed, plus had coolant got through the bleed hose hole.  I jumped in and started the car with the clutch down, the noise was sort of there, but again less frequent.  In the end I blipped the throttle hard a couple of times, the engine sounded fine, it roared, it was clear the noise was an ancillary and not the block or head.  Plus whatever it was, it cleared with the blip.  We're now thinking it was coolant either inside the bell housing on a part, or on the pulleys/belt at the front.  We've since tested the car with multiple starts, and driven it, it's fine.  Nevertheless, it resulted in the PRT being removed.

Mark (mate) wants to try again to see if the issue repeats, he thinks it won't, however, he doesn't like the PRT.  He feels it's quite restrictive on the flow when under 82c as there's a narrow opening and coolant is required double back on itself having hit the rear of the stat.

Anyhow it's been an eventful day, some ups and downs.  No harm was done, and I'm a little more confident with the car, removing the intercooler was a big step. She is still over cooled though. 

Oh and the thermostat housing pipe........ how ridiculously short is the pipework against some form of mount!  Caterham build the car with basically the width of the clamp holding the hose on!

I'll sort some pics out in a bit.

Of course would love to know your thoughts.

[CtrMint]

Please let me know if anyone thinks there is an issue with the orientation of the PRT.  

[CtrMint]

fitted, as was.

[Titanium7]

*You did take the original stat out didn't you Mark?

[CtrMint]

I didn't, no, i still don't understand the need too.  I'm also struggling to get to it without removing the plenum.

As far as I can see. the PRT shouldn't affect the volume of water, or pressure hitting the factory stat.  It should just help keep it warm.  Unless I'm missing something which is probably true.  I'm still learning here.

[CtrMint]

This afternoon after some gardening in the heat I decided to go for a run in the 620, figured it would be refreshing.  The wife and I jumped in the car and headed out from Onchan over to Ramsey via The Mountain road.  After watching the car fail to get over 60c and watching the fuel plummet, I pulled over at one of the few laybys just after the Bungalow. Turned the car around and went back,  we pulled into The Creg Ny Baa and had a refreshment, and then went home! 

Absolutely frustrated and disgusted, its a hunk of junk!

The 620R is the worst car I have ever bought, I wish to god I'd never considered it,

 

[Alan Bowler]

Would an old skool bit of cardboard/ali/carbon to partially block off the rad work at least as a temporary solution?

[ScottR400D]

It may well do but Mark is, understandably reluctant to use a lash up on a £60k + car. 

Quite right too. 

I would urge Mark to wait and see how the Doctor gets on on track with the big modification and, assuming it’s proven to work, get his car so modified. 

If I were him I’d be treating the Doc to a short holiday in the IOM to fit it all for him. 

Work that should never have been necessary? Absolutely! But I think we all know the alternative, that CC finally get ‘customer service’ and do the right thing, isn’t going to happen. 

[Mark w]

My guess is that there's no stat in it or the stat is stuck open or the gauge and / or the sensor are duff .

I drove my unmodified 620R from London  to Anglesey today via mid and north  Wales . Just over 300 miles . The temp gauge was never as low as 60 .the lowest I saw was 70 in the Cotswolds where it was nippy and I stopped to put a jumper on .i know my gauge under reads a bit .

However frustrating it is the car needs to go back to Caterham for them to look at it . Speak to one of the directors explain the difficulties of your location and see if something can be sorted . Maybe you could put it on a ferry and someone could collect it at the other end .Caterham were helpful to me when I had a faulty hose split under warranty on the M25 , They collected the car and returned it when fixed . 

 

[Alan Bowler]

Yes, seems likely no stat or non-functioning stat in this instance, and that should be investigated first before adding a second remote one, PLUS some generic over cooling issues for 620s on the road.

But in the interests of confirming the fuelling problem is linked (or is that 100% proven), and having a blat in the sunshine to reduce frustration with the car, I would have been very tempted to blank off part of the rad. 

[ScottR400D]

I think if you read the other thread on this issue you’d see that all that is unlikely.  

 

[Mark w]

I thought I would post this to show why you shouldnt always believe the gauge , It's reading 75 ish yet the ECU is seeing 93 

[StevehS3]

Is that from a sensor located at a different point in the circuit?