Ultralight flywheel and clutch; F155 performance upgrade for Supersport 140

[L777JDP]

Hello all,

I am looking into engine performance upgrades for my Caterham. It's a 140 Roadsport which has had the Supersport upgrade by Caterham prior to my taking ownership.

Does anyone have any experience of what improvement this is likely to give in terms of faster engine response? This is for road use, and partly motivated by an increasingly strong dislike to being out accelerated by Tesla's finest... strong dislike being a more appropriate form of words for this forum.

I'm also considering a F155 engine performance upgrade from Premier Power Engines, to increase the low and mid-range torque.

I can't convince myself whether I need their F175 performance upgrade, which gives Duratec R300 performance while the engine is some 20kg lighter.

The rub is that the F155 upgrade can be done with the engine in the car, reducing the cost, while the F175 upgrade is done with the engine out. The significance of this is that the flywheel/clutch upgrade on the F175 upgrade is substantially cheaper. Therefore doing flywheel/clutch and F155 as separate jobs is fine, but to then upgrade to the F175, rather than just go for that including the flywheel/clutch adds a significant chunk to the cost due to the extra labour.

I'd welcome anyone's experience of doing such performance upgrades.

Best regards,

John.

[mossy7]

To be fair, I'm not sure there is much you can do to keep up with a Tesla. Autocar ran a 620R against a Tesla and it barely kept up from a standing start.    

​from what I have read, the F155 upgrade merely whets your appetite for the F175 and financially it's probably best to jump straight to the  F175- it is highly regarded as indeed is all the work by Stuart at Premier Power. 

​

[Garth]

John - go with Premier Powers 175 - you will end up there in there anyway!

[Domus]

I agree.

 

I fitted Stuart's lightweight flywheel and smaller alternator kit in conjunction with a Two Steves remap and SPC gearbox.

 Worked very well but eventually went the 175 route.  No complaints.

[Sean2015]

 

Probably went through similar thought process/cost comparisons some 12 months ago with my 125; initially thought that the 155 would give me suitable/adequate increase. In the end, went for the 175 (and laminova oil cooler). Delighted to say still happy with the 175 - more than enough 'go' for me, with perfect manners and starts first time.

[L777JDP]

Thank you mossy7, Garth, Domus and Sean2015.

I will look into the laminova oil cooler. Also the car currently has the rad provided with the standard 125 engine, so a rad upgrade will also be needed. I've got info on PP's Ford and Motorsport heat exchangers, and I'm planning to have the Caterham oil pressure gauge replaced with a dual gauge that also measures oil temperature.

I'm convinced I need the F175 upgrade over the F155. Does anyone have any experience of the F200 upgrade? I'd like to be confident I'm unlikely to need it for road use.

[andyl]

John you might want to look at a Ford oil/water exchanger and save some money? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Ford-Zetec-1-4L-Sigma-1-6L-Petrol-Engine-Oil-Cooler-1925463/272379403929?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

[mossy7]

I had a ride out with Stuart from PP in his F200. In the end I couldn't drive it because my legs are too short but I got a reasonable feel for it.

Basically it's mental. The power delivery is linear and smooth. It loves to rev and pulls harder up the rev range. It goes like stink. You will never want more and then there is the noise. OMG the noise is incredible. But ... and there is a but... I think it's more suited to the track than the road. It's an amazing bit of engineering but I do,think the F175 for the road is the better bet.

That said, why don't you speak to Stuart. He will chat for ages, and is a genuine lover of 7s. He will gladly give you a test drive both on the road and on track. He's one of the good guys and I can't recommend him enough.

Andy

 

 

 

 

 

[L777JDP]

Thanks Andy L, and Andy.

I think I am all set. I am averse to scaring myself silly these days, so the F175 sounds like the right option for me. Given it is only for road use I think the Ford HX (and thanks for the link) will be a winner.

I also appreciate the various comments that have reassured me about Stuart and his company.

John.

[BigCol]

I’ve been contemplating upgrading my 140 SuperSport SV but so far have only contemplated...!

Having a heavier car, I fancy around 180bhp which would give circa 300bhp/ton which I understand has long been considered the sweet spot for road use.  

There seem to be limited options...

Stuart’s work is well-regarded but whilst good value, it ain’t cheap!

Garth might be along soon to describe his 200bhp Sigma built by HWR.

For those that look at Facebook, Dave Gemzoe (not sure if he’s on here) has put together a beautifully-engineered EcoBoost conversion.  Cost, all-in, looks to be pushing five figures - so between PP’s 175 and 200 upgrades.  That though gives you an engine with switchable maps from Sensible (180-ish) though to Nutter (230+) weighing the same as the Sigma.

[L777JDP]

Hi BigCol,

Something I've taken on board from Stuart is the concept that "horsepower sells engines, but torque wins races".

Although I already have the Supersport upgrade with the lightened flywheel, the engine doesn't really have enough torque at the low to mid range, so the acceleration I'm looking for isn't there. How much of that is the engine, and how much the ECU's power map I don't know but the Caterham ECU can't be reprogrammed I'm told. PP replace it with and MBE 9A4 which can be remapped.

[andyl]

It was that miraculous engine designer Brian Hart that said "There's a lot of talk about BHP, but it's Torque that wins races" I had one of his Gem's, a Hart DFR and I can say it was fantastic :0) 

[BigCol]

You’re right...  torque > power... 

the “horsepower sells engines but torque wins races” is the car-equivalent of the golfing phrase “drive for show, putt for dough”!

Can’t comment on the torque of the various options I mentioned!

[Garth]

I love my HWR Sigma upgrade (just less then 200bhp) and would be happy to chat to you about your plans John. You would be welcome to take it for a drive if you are ever in the area (Wimbledon). The Sigma upgrade does not have as much torque as the Duratec (bhp equivalent) and so you need to use the revs more, but that is partly what I enjoy about it - also in my view it is a little more progressive to drive so less likely to lose the rear end by putting down too much 'power' at the wrong moment!.

HWR are great engine builders and they were good at sorting out a few niggles I had, but I think Stuart at Premier Power has much more experience with the Sigma engine. He has also concentrated on Caterhams, so overall I think his package with smaller alternator, etc. is a neater fit. HWR also prefer to work with Omex ECU's whereas I think Stuart will work with the your existing MBE unit?

I have not driven the 175, but I think most of the power gain is at the top end of the rev range, so I doubt there is much issue with drivability of the 200 on the road as I think the torque and power curves for both the 175 and 200 are fairly similar lower down the curve! Could be wrong on this?

I went for a lighter flywheel, but not the ultra light version - cannot remember why now!!

I also changed the ratois of 1st and 2nd gears and that has improved drivability on the track - even in my original 125 guise I found 1st was far to short and one was snatching for 2nd too soon! My longer 1st is not as much fun in stop start traffic and also  a bit slower getting away from standstill! The 175 and 200 work includes balancing and keying the crankshaft which means the redline increased to just over 8000rpm and it gets there very quickly so shift lights are a must!

Good luck

[L777JDP]

What Stuart purports to provide is significantly higher torque at lower revs, for all his upgrades. Ultralight flywheel and clutch is the first thing to go for, whether you are interested in the F155, F175 or F200 upgrades, as the cheapest way to a more responsive engine. It seems that the F175 is the point to stop for road use, with the F200 (according to the commentary above, not Stuart's) being more suited for the track. The F175, again according to the blurb, gives Duratec R300 performance (I assume based on BHP, not low rev torque) from an engine approx 20kg lighter.

Again, according to Stuart the Caterham ECU is not programmable. What I have is an MBE product (labeled 36L038A), so maybe what I have is not standard? Not a Fu Manchu - only interested in driving it really. Built one in my mid 20s, some 30 years ago. Escort engine, bored out to 1700, dual weber 45s, Himalayan cam of some description, increased compression ratio. You only had to think about being quick to get a yelp out fo the back tires. what I have doesn't compare. If feels almost politically correct, which I have no time for.

My current car is a 13 plate and was originally built as a kit, and I am it's third owner. To date it has only done 4600 miles! I am somewhat regretting not getting a 2L Duratec, but optimistic that Stuart will sort it, out to my satisfaction at least. It also needs a new rad (original is per 125 spec, Stuart recommends a aluminum replacement from Radtach). I'm also going for the optional Ford oil-to-water HX, and oil pressure gauge replaced by a a dual oil pressure and temperature gauge to make sure the engine does not get too hot.

Mossy7 (above) reckons the F200 is mental and more suited to the track than road, so I've shied away from that. I was originally planning to go for the F155. It would be good to compare notes once I get the the thing back, which will be late July let's aim to meet up sometime after that.. I'll PM you my mobile number.

 

[Brightonuk]

Love My Superlite but when it comes to the drag strip I take this one 

/sites/default/files/images/users/44267/Black%20Out%20Drivers%20Back%20Good.jpg

 

[L777JDP]

Yes, I'm not expecting to out accelerate a Tesla.

As the car has only done 4600 miles, likely the bits that Stuart takes off might be of interest to someone who has a 125 and is looking to upgrade it to a 140 Supersport as it has Caterham's lightened flywheel. Parts should be available at the end of July. From my discussion with Stuart it seems he would be willing to fit these for someone, at a cost obviously.

[L777JDP]

Just a quick update. Dropped the car off with Stuart at Premier Power for its 175bhp upgrade this morning. He kindly gave me a lift to Banbury station in his 200bhp creation, with its LifeRacing ECU and steering wheel mounted telemetry.

I didn't find it that noisy even when Stuart opened it up. It was really something, and amazingly responsive. Yet at the lights it ticks over at about 1000rpm and appeared to be very drivable in slow traffic. That said, I think I've gone for the best option for my needs. Can't wait to get it back!

[L777JDP]

I thought I’d close this thread off by letting people know I collected the car from Stuart at Premier Power on Monday evening after it came off the rolling road. The final check over included taking the plugs out and visually inspecting insides the cylinders, head and valves just to be sure there were no leaks or signs of detonation, etc. before giving it a final test drive on the road.

Very pleased with the end result. While the power increase from 140 to 175 is not that much, it really feels like it is twice as responsive, which I guess is the torque, with the power just increasing smoothly up the rev range, making car much easier to drive. Previously it did not feel that much fun to drive until you were up around 4000 rpm so it’s hard to believe it is the same size engine.

Now that I have it, and have driven a few miles in it, I’m confident I made the right choice to go to 175 rather than 155, although doubtless that would also feel very different with the ultralight flywheel. 200 would have been more than I’ll ever need on for road use, but for track use I’m sure it would be brilliant.

I opted to have a Ford oil to water HX fitted and a cat bypass pipe.

[Guyzor]

Hi John,

I've been contemplating the Supersport upgrade as I'm still on the 125 ladder rung. If the parts/fitting option pans out, I may be interested.

Thanks,

Guy

[L777JDP]

Hi Guy,

The Caterham 140 upgrade includes a lighter flywheel, but I opted to replace that with Premier Power's ultralight flywheel and clutch. It makes the engine a lot more (for want of a better word) whizzy. As it is an engine out job, you only want to do that once.

I'd do that and see how you get on. If you then want more torque/power, then you could look at PP's 155 upgrade. I'm sure that would be a big jump from 125. 

John.

[Guyzor]

Thanks for the advice, John!

[BigCol]

I’ve a 140 Sigma Supersport that I believe comes with Caterham’s lightened flywheel.

Anyone know how that compares in weight with the standard item and Premier Power’s Ultra-lightweight one?

[andyl]

Stuart advised me yesterday that the Caterham flywheel was 2Kg lighter and that his was 5Kg lighter.

[BigCol]

Thanks Andy...  any idea the weight of the standard unit (or any of them!) as a reference and to tell the percentage differences?