R400D - Possible head gasket issue?

[Tomiam]

Hi All, 
Im in need of some steerage towards the right direction please.
I have a duratec powered 2008 R400 with Roller barrel throttle bodies & I believe I have a head gasket issue.  

Symptoms.
Drove it for 25 mins, starting from cold.  Got to Anglesey circuit and parked up.  Coolant is pouring out from the expansion tank.   The expansion tank is completely full of coolant. ie: there is no gap in there for 'air' at all.
I believe this may be caused by a leak in the head gasket which allows exhaust gas to enter the cooling system, pressurising it.
I did nothing bar squeeze some water pipes and then did 8 runs at a sprint there without issue.    Drove it back to the premier inn, not one drop of coolant dropped out.
Its done this once or twice before in my garage after being out for a short drive but nothing as major as the amount of coolant coming out this time.

Engine sounds like its 'missing' every now and again at higher rpm. Nothing massive but its not running 100% smoothly.   On a score of 1 - 100, Id say 93.  ie: I came 6th overall in my sprint vs other decent competitors so its not like the engine is a bag of spanners, but its just slightly noticeable.

Starting always requires a very small amount of throttle.  Not sure if this is related or not, but its not of major concern to me.

Friend driving behind reported a few bits of white smoke coming from the exhaust every now and again about 1 hr onwards into our 5 hr trip.

Figured all of the above is pretty much fluff and the best thing to do would be a compression test:
Im new to this so this is how I did it.
Took out all the spark plugs.  All 4 were taken out before any compression test.
Put meter onto a cyclinder and cycled the engine (by ignition) for 6 turns with the inertia switch disconnected and accelerator fully depressed.
Engine was still warm at this point.
I started on cyclinder 1 and then did cyclinder 2 , 3 & 4 in turn.
Readings I got were. 
1 = 225
2 = 243
3 = 215
4 = 220

Are these readings normal?  Any thoughts, advise or plain old.. 'you should do this to test' direction would be appreciated. :)

[Jonathan Kay]

Engine coolant temperature during this?

What coolant?

Do you know about chemical testing for combustion products in coolant?

Jonathan

[Tomiam]

Compression tests updated in the above post.  Sorry about that.. tried to make it easy for people to help me, but was following an internet guide which didnt mention having to have the accelerator pressed when doing compression tests.

Engine temperature remains completely normal. ie: in the middle of the gauge.   I've just had a 6hr drive back from Anglesey to Bristol and I was keeping a very close eye on the temp.  Nothing wrong.  Likewise, nothing wrong on any of the sprints or the driving up to Wales (6hr trip).

Coolant - Im assuming one of caterhams own.  I've owned the car for a year and a bit now and its always been 'red' in colour.  I've only ever added water to it.

Didnt know about chemical testing.  I will google it now.

 

 

[Tomiam]

Righto.. seems like a chemical test is the least expensive way forward. Although not exactly free either.
Do you happen to know if the coolant remains contaminated forever after its been in contact with exhaust gases?  
I would still be interested in knowing if those compression readings are normal, assuming someone knows ofc :)

[Tomiam]

Just had another look at the expansion tank.   Took the cap off and there is a slight brown film on the inside.  Its also around the inside neck of the tank and all over the top of the tank (on the inside).
Feels like very fine mud, if that makes sense.
In short.. some form of contaminant is definately getting in.

Anyone think of anything else to add to this?   

 

[Tomiam]

Cheers for the steerage Jonathan. :)
Found a friendly garage willing to loan me a chemical tester so I can check for leaks. £10 & a "Thank you!" is better than £50-£60 for a one off test.
Pretty sure this article I found describes my situation: http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/car-trouble-long-term-head-gasket-problem
Minor leak. Occassional loss of fluid.  Caused by exhaust gas pressurising the coolant system.

Guess I will see when I test it later :)

[malcolm1sim]

I have an R300 D from 2009. I have not had any of the issues above but one word prompted

me to post.

MUD. 

When my car had a coolant change after a couple of years, nothing posh just fresh water and pink

antifreeze, the drained fluid could very well have been described as mud.

Since the change the fluid has remained a pleasant pink colour, and the car runs about 5 degrees 

cooler. Rock steady under almost all conditions. 

Does beg the question: has your fluid ever been changed and was there something in the system 

from new?

Good luck.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tomiam]

Fair comment and thank you. I did a gearbox oil change last week and going by the state of the magnetic plug.. id say that had never been done.

Chances of coolant being done are likely slim as well given what i know about the cars history.

Just did a chemical test and nothing showed up.

I'll try flushing the coolant and see if that helps with the mud aspect.

 

Just cant get my head around the expansion tank being full (no air) and coolant being forced out aggressively and then it being perfectly fine.

Sorry if this comes out as 1 paragraph.. posting on my phone and this forum always looses the formatting..

[Alastair B]

More often than not there is a simple explanation and it need not be a HGF. Have you tried replacing the expansion cap? If this were to be defective you would lose system pressure and cause coolant expansion, worth a try for a few quid.

[ScottR400D]

Couldn't be the stat failing to open occasionally? Overheating in the block might force water out of the header tank. That might also account for the crap in there too. 

Just a thought. 

[Tomiam]

Cheers folks! I hadnt thought about the opposite of pressure increasing. Ie. The cap failing. Worth a shot.

Likewise stat failing. Although im not getting any erratic / high temperature readings.

Will start with coolant flush and new cap. Then go to stat aftwr.

Advice very much appreciated. :)

 

[malcolm1sim]

I think your plan, 11, is a good one, certainly a cheap option. I would take stat out though, that way you can check its operation on kitchen stove and flush the system both ways. Pressure caps are not too expensive either but I would try flush and stat check first. Nothing worse than curing it and knowing it was one of two or more things!

Again, good luck.

 

 

 

[JNC]

One of the Local chaps was having troubles as you describe except the mud ! Normal temp no issues but at Dunsfold this year his car dumped the antifreeze from the expansion tank again it only happened when the car was used in anger . A new cap and a thorough bleed of the system cured it . Like most Caterhams the expansion tank is lower than the heater so you have two options 1 fit a bleed tee by the heater 2 jack the car up so the expansion tank is higher than the heater .

[Jonathan Kay]

And then there was Tom Gaval's saga: 1, 2, 3.

Jonathan

[Tomiam]

Thank you all.
New expansion cap ordered from ebay.  I'll take out the stat this evening and test it.  You're right, checking the stat is definately worth doing and Ive got a few days to wait for the cap to arrive as well.
Coolant flush.. here we come.

Point noted about positioning of expansion tank and height.
I will unattach the expansion tank, still connected to system, and raise it higher up as well as getting the front wheels up on ramps when refilling. 

[chrisbeddoe]

Second replacing the cap, I have had this twice before (admittedly not on a Caterham) 

[John Vine]

Engine sounds like its 'missing' every now and again at higher rpm. Nothing massive but its not running 100% smoothly.

I'm wondering whether that could have been caused by stray coolant getting tangled up in the electrics somewhere?

Did you get any more info on your compression readings?  

JV

[malcolm1sim]

How did the flushing go. Plenty of brown stuff?

[Tomiam]

Hi folks.

Cap hasnt arrived from fleabay yet so ive not got any further forwards with flushing. Will be doing that this weekend.

With regards to the compression test. I also did a chemical test on the coolant which was negative. Given the reasonably close figures on yhe compression as well.. im leaning towards no HG failure.

 

Will update later this weekend for sure. :)

[Tomiam]

Put new expansion tank cap on.

Did some other bits n pieces like pedal position adjustment and replace throttle cable (original one was too short to allow me to move pedals).

Went out for a drive to see if any issues with coolant. Within a few miles the cabin was ridiculously hot!! Cheched the heater and it wasnt on. 20 mins into the drive and im getting fried...

Then remembered id not put the top of the pedal box back on.. oops!

On a more positive note.. no coolant leaking. Ive also ordered one of these http://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/black-nylon-16mm-joiner-with-bleed which i will put up by the heater. Once thats in.. then i'll do a full flush and check thermostat. Just dont like the idea of having coolant system drained for ages.

Any recommendations for red coolant?

[Jonathan Kay]

I use prediluted Comma XStream G30 in my K series. The last time I looked the cheapest source was Amazon UK.

What's the factory recommendation for your Duratec? I think it's:

Anti-freeze
The anti-freeze content of the coolant must be maintained all the year round. Caterham use Comma X-stream Red and Ford Superplus premium (ready mixed), however, if a water/antifreeze mix is substituted for any reason a minimum of 50% antifreeze is required. To ensure that its anti-corrosion properties are retained, the anti-freeze content should be checked by Caterham Aftersales once a year. The coolant should be completely renewed every four years. 

That Comma product is the same thing.

There have been some failures of plastic bleeding T-pieces. All of them in factory components fitted to Sigmas IIRC. Some Members recommend brass because of that.

Jonathan

PS: How many posts before somebody raises... ?

[John Vine]

Sounds like a result!  Not to say a relief.

Re coolant, I've always used Comma G30 Xstream concentrate in my Duratec (as recommended in my Handbook).  I dilute it with condensate from my dehumidifier.

I notice that the latest Handbook recommends, for all cars, Red antifreeze (whatever that is - very vague) or Ford Super Plus Anti-freeze.

JV

 

[Tomiam]

Yea thats what i have in the handbook which came with the car. 'Red' isnt that helpful.. :) Thanks for the recomendations :)

[Alastair B]

Glad the tip to keep it simple with the coolant cap may have paid off. Best lesson learned here is whenever you get dragged into a 'doomsday' scenario, step-back and think through the physics of what is happening and tackle the simple and cheap solutions first, preferably one at a time so to establish what was root cause. Easier said than done though when it is your pride and joy, if so then refer to Blatchat to calm things down .

[Jonathan Kay]

Agreed x4. Well said.

Jonathan