Class and tyres debate

[Simon.Rogers]

The step I think people need to consider is that Tyre Lists are going to disappear. There will not be list 1a 1b or 1c just a road going and non road going.

The detail of the class structure at this point in time is not relevant to me ( and I guess that is what Rob and one or two others have said also), its the principal of looking ahead and forming  a structure that will last.

My fear is that we will be forever changing classes if we just follow the lists as they are now.

On the merging of class 2 and 3.   They are the 2 largest classes and yes it will be a very big new class. So what is the issue? Do we want competition or to win prizes? It will naturally be the largest class as the majority of 7's will have been built to this mid specification.

I agree with the comments that Tyre manufacturers will catch up etc but what will not change is that they will be E Marked and minimum "e" rated or whatever the EU decides = road going.

They may decide to make them out of wood next so that we are even more environmental. 

[Richard Price]

The step I think people need to consider is that Tyre Lists are going to disappear. There will not be list 1a 1b or 1c just a road going and non road going.

Is that fact or speculation Simon?

At this stage, I don't think we're in a position to second guess what will happen with tyre lists in a couple of years time. We need to adapt to the information that we already have access to, ie the tyres in Lists 1a,1b, & 1c that the MSA have already published for next year. Then, when we have further FACT, adapt to that.

Unfortunately, such change also renders some class records null and void. Again, wh have to adapt to that, and wait to see if suficient stability returns before basing championship scoring on weak records.

[Shaun_E]

I agree with Richard - we can only respond to fact. If we try second guessing what will happen, there is just as much chance of us having to backtrack and change the regulations again. We don't know what tyre manufacturers will do or exactly how the MSA will change the regs for 2018 (F rated tyres will be allowed to be sold until November 2018).

IMO messing with the 2 most popular classes is not a good idea at this time especially as in many cases people will feel they have to buy not just new tyres but new wheels as well - aren't most class 2 on 15" rims and most class 3 on 13" rims? 

I know we want to attract new drivers but alienating a large percentage of regulars isn't the way to go about it. The R300 and Roadsport 175 drivers can compete in class 4 which is very small at the moment and splitting it further won't improve things. Despite it not being ideal for me, I think maybe class 5 and 6 ought to be combined again just to get the class to a decent size.

We just have to accept that things will be in a state of flux while the tyre changes are settled.

If we were setting up a championship from scratch we wouldn't set the classes as they are today but any radical change is going to upset a number of regular competitors on who the championship relies - changes have to be evolutionary not revolutionary.

 

[robmar]

So if  as mentioned by David and Graham - if there is a desire for accomadating cars up to another power band, could this work also with regard the future (unknown tyre classifiation)

Class 2 - up to 150 bhp list 1a

Class 3 - up to 175 bhp - currently run on 1b, however if/when we the MSA changes to either 1 list or 1b is 'E' rated or something else  the class stays at that power band but is now running maybe same tyres as class2...

I am not sure say 25 bhp is enough to make a huge differentiator and does it now mean class 3 runners at 150 have to also look at engine mods, as well as new tyres...  But is this sort of thing future proof, I am not sure becuase records would need to be reset anways when any future trye regs come in...

Again as Simon says these are classes that don't effect me, but I want the chanpionship to be acttractive to exisiting competitors as well as new comers, so i do care about trying to get things straight.

rob

 

[Alan Bowler]

For classes 1-3, average entry per event, per class, was 7.   Good competition.

For classes 4-7, average entry per event, per class was 1.5.  Broken.

I don't have a solution for 4-7, but I don't think merging 2-3 on the basis of guessing future MSA tyre rules and manufaturer plans solves the main long term problem for the championship. Merge them later if necessary when the facts are known.
 

 

 

[Simon.Rogers]

Before Sunday's vote I would like to here the views of as many competitors as possible.  I am not yet decided and my vote is certainly going to be influenced by others view point.

Please don't be shy and sit in the shadows 

This is the biggest change affecting the Championship in all the time I have been competing for nearly 14 years.

You may be unsure of the consequence, agnostic to the changes or even so peed off that you do not intend to return. 

I really would like to here those views and I know so would others in the same position as me.

Just because I made a proposal myself does not mean that is the way I will vote.  I made that proposal I guess on behalf of the "Devils Advocate"  and as a feasible option looking outside of our current structure.  That doesn't mean of course that I will preclude myself from voting for it.

 

[Mark Durrant]

I agree with Simon, do you all understand the implications of the changes proposed, do you know what is required for a car to compete in Mod Prod?

[Grahame W]

Having had the benefit of reading others excellent efforts to pull together disparate and often conflicting issues my two pennyworth is

Will compete next year in a 150bhp class on 1B's if that is what is decided. (New tyres needed anyway)

Having effectively missed a chance for a fundamental rethink last year, and with external forces requiring us to rethink again this year am much in favour of having classes that are as inclusive as possible such as a 210bhp class 4 (I think most current competitors could make this with just a remap and it opens the class up to more standard current cars)

A 175bhp class 3 on 1B's makes sense as also being more inclusive, is not too far from what we know a  fully developed current class 3 engine can produce, so could provide for current class 3 competitors who want the stickiest available tyres or allows others to revert to class 2. However not sure how many 175bhp cars Caterham have produced over the years that we are currently excludinhg) 

Resetting of records is just a pain that has to be born as other than its use in determining the overall championship class records should merely reflect the latest iteration of class rules.

For simplicity (if not good competition) would like to see 5 and 6 combined and can see no option other than to go Mod Prod.

[Simon.Rogers]

Thanks Grahame 

[OliW]

I would also support a 210bhp class 4; 5 and 6 being merged to provide more competition; classes 5 and upwards going mod prod; and 4 and below continuing as roadgoing on List 1Bs.  I'm agnostic about class 7 compounds, but would sway to voting against that for reasons of inclusiveness.

Oli

[robmar]

I note a lot of support for 1b tyres remaining which is fine, is there any support for classes running 1C at all.

My original proposal was based on the assumption people wanted to run 1c, is that not the case?  Even if a catch all class....

My biggest worry is having too much fragmentation of classes, i think the ideal is 6 or 7 max IMO

I would also support a 210 limit unless someone can explain why not....

rob

[Mark Durrant]

Remember any class going Mod Prod will impact on competitors competing in other championships where they are restricted to List 1b. They are likely to need another set of wheels/tyres in addition to an FHR as required for Mod Prod. If class 5 goes to Mod Prod any novice with be faced with the additional cost of a FHR which is not a good idea for a class already with a small number of entries.

[Leg]

I would support:

•  Leaving Class 2 and 3 as they are
• Class 4 going to 210bhp
• Combine Class 5, 6 & 7

I want to support Rob's idea of Mod Prod Lite, using List 1C's for Classes 3c and 4c ( I think that 5,6 &7 should probably just become Mod Prod Class). However, this idea limits you to only competing in Lotus 7 Club events. 

Many of us have tried to persuade other clubs that the best solution to the current tyre issues is (at least for the next two years) to run a Mod Prod Lite class on 1C's -  but none of them are interested in policing anything that sits outside of the Blue Book. Unless other clubs also go this route (I know the WSCC is considering it), I am not sure if it is supportable in the long term.

Heart says vote for this, it's what you want . Head knows it means two sets of tyres!

Lynn

[Drumster]

Class 4 to 210bhp doesn't really bother me (doubt it will make me less competitive if I'm honest).  As long as CC continue to produce different models with different power there will always be someone who can't 'fit' so where do we draw the line? I strongly believe that if people want to compete they will. I don't think changing the rules will necessarily lead to more competitors.... 

I'm really not sure about the 1b or 1c issue. I'd like to stick with 1c purely because my Kumho SS are only a year old and because I don't do that many events buying a new set of tyres to conform to 1b doesn't make financial sense to me (they'll probably last me another 2 seasons at my current rate of competition). Also for the last 15 years I've only ever driven my 7 on List 1c (always used Yoko 21s on the road) so 'downgrading' to 1b is not something top of my wish list.

A FHR is already on the list for next year (possibly a year earlier than I intended due to recent events) and a new helmet is required too. How much more is needed to go Mod Prod (presuming I can get a sticker for my cage)?

So, (if I satisfy the regs for Mod Prod then Simon's proposal for a 'Mod Prod Lite' makes personal sense, but I guess there won't be enough of us to justify this class! So realistically I reckon I'll have a choice of:

a. Class 4 210bhp List 1b or

b. Class ? List 1c

No idea what other class4 people think? But whatever happens I'll still be there....

[Jeff S]

I am also happy to compete in class 3 on 1B's next year with a 150bhp limit and would also compete if the class went up to 175bhp as I'm not sure how much difference it would make. Would it attract more competitors (a good thing) or would it confuse or irritate those already competing?

Again its down to peoples conception of what they think they need to be competitive in class. If the limit goes up to 175 the k series owners would have to go to throttle bodies and cams to achieve this (Sigma 150's as well?) and then the rolling road proving if asked for. What I'm saying is the current class rules would have to be replaced simply with 175bhp max, on 1B's and road legal.

If raising to 175 attracts more competitors then great. If I were then to prove uncompetitive in class 3 with 150 I would move quite happily the year after to class 2 to avoid the expense, but would others?

As Rob says, 210 in class 4 seems fine to me if those that it effects are ok with it, and that it may attract more competitors.

I really cant see the point in creating a new class for the 'lower HP' people to still play with sticky (1C) tyres, it just creates yet another class that may have few competitors. Surely the most important decision is where to make the break in class structure to go Mod Prod.

Jeff

[Jeff S]

Blimey I must type quicker, four posts since I started!

[Nigel Fox]

I intend to run an engine next year that would fit into this years class 5.

i shall be competing in the both the Longton and Liverpool championships which will require 1B tyres.

what makes the Lotus 7 championship viable for me is the number of aligned events, typically Aintree, Harewood, Loton, Anglesey etc.

If class 5 becomes mod prod (ie out of step with the rest of the country), then the L7 championship may be a non starter for me.

Nobody has produced any evidence that supports the supposed danger of 1B tyres on class 5 cars.

I don't believe that our club is big enough to support classes that don't align with the rest of the country.

Clearly this is a personal view from my own perspective, however I think others will be affected in a similar way if Class 5 goes mod prod.

[OliW]

Having said earlier that I think 5 and up ought to be mod-prod, I've taken Nigel and others' points in to consideration and changed my mind.  I'm now going to say I'd prefer all but class 7 to stay as roadgoing classes - for the reason of inclusiveness and parity with other championships.

[david nelson]

It's good to see a few extra people posting but we are missing about 92% of the current championship compeditors. 

I am with Grahame's post. 

Class 1 as is 120bhp on 1a

class 2 up to 150bhp on 1a

class 3 up to 175bhp  on 1b

class 4 up to 210bhp on 1b road going

class 5 any power on 1c mod prod

class 6 slicks  mod prod

 

 

 

 

[robmar]

David what about people who have 210+ and list 1b....

Oli - flip flop

Jeff - where you typing at 2 words a minute

[robmar]

David - one more

Sorry to confirm a busa with 200 bhp 1b and road legal is class 4?

Actually my engine (which is down on power) is currently at 170, so can i go in class 3 if I get some 1b tyres...

Just askin...

[Simon.Rogers]

To clarify my idea was to be inclusive and provide a class for everyone to compete in whether following our current format and BHP criteria for 1B or the wider bhp limits for the 1C tyres - it means everyone can play.  Like Rob there are wider power limits as to many classes would be pointless.  The actual BHP limits could be varied.

FYI it looks like Leaders and Midland Hillclimb will take a Mod Prod Lite class which all the regulars will run in like Ken Evans, Ash Mason, Alan Warberton and Roger Moran et al.

Good to see the other opinions.

 

[Richard Price]

My original proposal to the committee was that the classes and technical regulations should remain the same as they have been for the last few years (ie classes 3 to 6 running list 1b tyres, and remaining road legal). However, in revised that proposal because I feel strongly that class 3 should remain road going, and felt that votes from other classes may have prevented class 3 using 1b's.

I'm now feeling that I should have stuck with my original proposal as more folks seem to be inclined to use list 1b's than I originally thought.

How many folks would like to continue using tyres that will now be list 1c?

 

.

 

[david nelson]

Rob

Busa's stay in 5/6 

210+ on 1b tyres 

retune to 210 or have a catch all class

 

 

 

[punch]

In regard to class 3 increasing to 175hp , from what i have seen in the last two seasons i believe any one competing for class honours would strive to bring their cars up to 175+/- 10bhp, and 150hp cars would become uncompetitive and would naturally want  drop to class 2, but this would mean 1a tyres which is not appealing, so if this 175hp proposal were to go ahead would it be combined with class 2 moving up to 1b tyres, as these i believe are the tyres the majority of 150hp cars are currently sold with.

Philip