2015 Tech forum - Class 4

[Matthew Willoughby]

Please see below a link to the proposed 2015 regs as drafted at the end of last year.

http://www.lotus7.club/sites/default/files/images/Docs/SpeedChamp/2015%20Championship%20Regulations%20-%20Draft%202.pdf

The main change, that I think most people are already aware of, is an increase in the power limit to 210BHP so that we include Duratec R400s. 
 
I don’t have any proposals for further changes but feel free to start a discussion if you have any ideas.
 

[Leg]

I think we need to consider the effect the changes to Class 4 will make on the championship as a whole.

We are told that the increase in power limit in Class 4 was in order to include Duratec R400's - but what has in fact happened is that we have included most of Class 5 within the new Class 4 regs but not attracted competitiors in R400's.

Class 4 will in effect become what was Class 5 in the past, leaving the big Duratec engined cars in solitary confinement in Class 5.

The lower powered Class 4 cars can not drop down to Class 3, because there is a big power gap between the two classes.

All we have done is taken away the disadvantage from some cars in Class 5 and transfered it to some cars in Class 4 - I can not see why this was done. We will loose competitors from the championship because of this rule change, not gain them.

A proposal has now been made to amalgamate Class 5 and 6 ( which would at least give the poor competitiors left in 5 some competition!) - but this seems an odd thing to do when next season the MSA have finally split the BUSA's out of 2B and in to a seperate class.

I believe that the rule change was made for the wrong reasons and that the rule change has killed Class 5 and should therefore be reconsidered.

 

[Simon.Rogers]

Lyn

I didn t know MSA had split 2b.  I think this I poor timing given the onset of big power Supercharged duratec etc.

I think it would be very very tight between the big Busa and all that supercharged smoothness.

Shaun has shown what 260 can do. Imagine 330+

Luke Algar and Richard Kerr ran their Supercharged Westy at Anglesey on 1bs and at their current 310 bhp (it can go to 370 I understand). Simply obliterated Shaun's times. Over 2.5 sec faster on the short circuit!!!!!!

The Bus a won't get anywhere near.  In Mag 7's they have lowered the class for the Bus as as they are out powered.

I'm not suggesting it would be fair for Shaun against me at Curbs. But at Anglesey I think it would be bloody close.

I just do not think its possible to get it correct for all.

Class 4 next year though will be very verry tough.

[Nigel Fox]

I fully support Lyn's comment.

I feel we have been presented with a fait accomplis hatched by uncompetitive existing class 5 members.

Furthermore we are being told we can only comment  minor detail, which is the reason I have not commented earlier.

I am far from happy with the decision making and consultation process.

I have not decided where I compete next season, but it may well be outside the Lotus 7 club championship.

[Shaun_E]

The suggested change in power limit was, I believe, made with the best intentions. It does however seem to have disadvantaged many regular class 4 competitors without bringing in the R400s that were hoped would join the championship. It will also have a disastrous effect on the class 5 entry. I am no longer so sure it is the right thing to do. Perhaps the limit should remain at 190bhp. Of course that will upset the 210bhp cars' owners   

[Simon.Rogers]

Unfortunately its all Shaun's fault 

He has driven to fast this year 

Seriously.

I see it both ways - That 190bhp catches many many cars that have "light" power upgrades.

Its been one of the most popular classes for a few years.  It seems a pitty to change it.

Then again its also been shown this year that on most of the venues this year Shaun has a very very significant advantage (proven by speed traps) over the 210 bhp cars.

I would suggest that there isn't an issue between 210 and 240bhp K's  A good driver will be able to win in the lower powered car.

I fear we have reached a point where another new class is the perfect answer -  191 - 240bhp H pattern 'box. But I also think thats wrong as we would end up like many other series with 2 cars in each class.

Handicap system ?  OK that could work but then we get into the realms of target times etc - LETS NOT GO THERE!

I just do not see this working for all.  

So lets look at what I have said about other classes - we shouldn't write the rules for the few but for the majority.  There are a couple of cars to my knowledge now that V11 UFO has left that fall into the 210 trap.  Perhaps they should have upgraded more sensibly with the rules that existed at the time in mind.  Perhaps they upgraded with the power that others had at the time in mind.

I do not know how to resolve this.

Lets have a count of which cars fit where.

Currently the only cars that can run the 210 bhp formular with zero cost (ie existing maps)

David Nelson, Mike Sankey and Stuart Miller.

I do not know of any others.

I don't know what to do.  

 

[Notsohotcams140]

Having been a Novice last year and not knowing anything, I was surprised that the 2015 regs would see the gap from Class 3 to Class 4 jump from 30bhp to 50bhp. That doesn't feel like people can progress. I personally wouldn't change the Class 4 Power limit. If we are looking to the future where will the Supersports fit, arently they 175bhp standard?

 

I agree with Simon's comments regarding an extra Class, because there are more and more cars for sale with over 190bhp but would be overshadowed by a 260bhp car. In an ideal there we woould have a lot more drivers. Unfortunately Simon Roger's sarcastic comment is near the truth. Shaun's as a driver, in his car running 260bhp is too quick for everyone in Class 5.

 

What I don't like reading are conspiracy theory's and yes everyone has a lean towards their own circumstances but I can only see the less competitive Class 5 drivers being pushed from place to place. Unwanted in Class 4 and no chance in Class 5. Whichever way it goes we risk people leaving the championship either from this year's Class 4 or Class 5.

 

Now for my situation......

 

Based on the released 2015 regulations I bought Simon Harrison-Moore's car but I don't really care who is beating me next season. I was looking further ahead as I would like to feel I have a plan for some fair competition. It would seem the most affordable way for that is to buy a 150ishbhp 1.8ss engine and enter class 3. Currently the Simon's car could be detuned to 210bhp from 222bhp. I would imagine Graham Denholm's car has similar bhp to Simon H-M's as their times were very close so he maybe another Class 5 heading for Class 4.

 

I agree that we should be making the rules fit for the majority of competitors who are currently in the championship because if we don't then existing members will get disillusioned and leave.

 

[Simon.Rogers]

Lets all chip in and buy Shaun a sequential box = 6 = sorted for now 

[Shaun_E]

So if I move to class 6, we set a power limit for 5 (240bhp) and leave 4 at 190bhp everyone is happy (except Gill  ). I know I can beat some of the Busa cars at certain venues, but Simon will have to leave his slicks on and stay in 7 

Seriously though that isn't a bad idea even though it doesn't suit me personally.

I've pushed the limits pretty hard this year and although there is still some improvement to come, the reduction in times is getting harder. Is my car realistically as quick as a Busa? I don't know - probably not. In a past life I might have fitted a Sadev with flappy paddles but I have a house project to fund now so that isn't going to happen.

I really want the championship to appeal to as broad a base of people as possible even if it doesn't suit me. I don't want to be a lone competitor in class 5 but equally will be frustrated if I'm continually beaten by the Busa boys.

[Simon.Rogers]

Shaun

If thats a way forward - fine by me.  Rob and Mark are the ones who want to compete with equal cars.

I may not be there that often next year anyway as the www.caterhamhirewales.com business is established.  People will want to collect the cars on the weekend so I may not get to the events in time.

There will be a reverse box in the car so i will fit in where needed.

Like you its the competition on the day that does it for me now and aiming for past PB's and records.

[CaterBram]

If the Class 5 Power limit is dropped to 240 BHP, and Shaun / Gill do move there current Class 5 into Class 6 for the good of the Championship with no other upgrades then I propose that both Shaun & Gills PB's & Records (Where quicker than Class 6) be transferred into Class 6.

This will ensure that neither Gill nor Shaun will be disadvantaged by there move.

There is prescident from when Class 5 & Class 6 was split originally.

 

[Stuart Miller 7]

A contentious issue !

I made some comments on class 4 within our class structure a couple of years ago - can't remember how public they were at the time.  From a personal point of view:

I see class 4 as the difficult class when it comes to the rules - 3 seems easy as the cars are pretty standard - 5 is easy as you can do what you like (within reason).  When it comes to 4 we are relying on rolling road / dyno measurements and we are somewhere in the middle.  For me, that's fine - there's no point in winning or setting records if you don't comply with the rules - the only person you cheat is yourself!  This is club racing and not F1!

David and I competed in Class 5 this year.  We run 209 and 204 BHP respectively on full map.  I hope the C5 results have gone some way to demonstrate that we were fully compliant in C4 on our limited maps.  I have over 30BHP losses between flywheel and wheels so I suspect that when in C4, power at the wheels was very similar accross the class.

Nigel, I would completely disagree that there has been a "hatched plan by existing uncompetetive class 5 members".  Certainly any conversation I have had with other members, comittee or not, has been centred on the concern to make the championship and classes as inclusive and fair as possible accross the board.  I have never heard of any competitor trying to influence the rules for their own benefit.  From a personal point of view (and I believe also David's view) the reason for the C5 entry this year was that several of the records were more achievable in 5 than they were in 4, and also partly to avoid this chat about reference power limits in the paddock.

There will always be quicker drivers as demonstrated by Chris HH at Harewood, although not competing in our championships, running in the 59's - 1.5s quicker than David and I in C5 and over 2s quicker than everyone in C4.  This in a 190BHP C4 car!

Simon, I don't make the 210BHP but I would be happy to compete in C4 at that level.  I would be equally happy to compete in C4 if the limit were to remain at 190BHP.  £150 at the rolling road is not a lot in the grand scheme (I don't have a switchable map).  I would also be happy for Graham and NotsoHot to compete in C4 - some will disagree with me but I think a 185 to 215 BHP spread is still fair competition.

So, I would be happy with the majority decision on the C4 power limit and will be happy to compete in that class providing the "how much power we all have" discussion is not continued thoughout the season.  If we decide that de-tuning 10 or 20 BHP to fit into a class is "not in the spirit" then I will go in C5 again and bitch and moan about how fast Shaun is in a straight line and take the moral high ground should I happen to beat him with 60BHP less....

On reflection, perhaps best to leave the C4 limit where it is.  I doubt a factory R400 genuinly makes it's 210BHP anyway and someone with an R4 is hardly going to baulk at a trip to the rolling road.

 

[robmar]

Shaun / Simon - as mentioned on another thread I would much prefer to see healthy (in terms of numbers) in each class over my personal chances of winning a tin pot.

To that end I don't have a problem with any regulation changes that make this a reality...

Rob -

PS you beat me everywhere this year anyways....

[Stuart Miller 7]

I seem to have spent rather a long time typing my post so missed the other incoming.

The other proposal also seems very sensible with a C5 limit of say 235BHP.  In which case would it be sensible to "suggest" (as opposed to make it a hard and fast rule) that it would not be "in the spirit of the championship" to detune your car more than 10BHP or so, thus avoiding all of class 5 squeezing their cars into class 4 and effectively creating another class 4a and 4b situation?

I think what everyone wants at the end of the day is to compete in a class where they are broadly similar to the next man (sorry girls ) and the competition is fair.

Again, personally, I have no issue with a standard R500 in the same class as me with my 204BHP.

[Notsohotcams140]

I think we have to be careful regarding actions being "in the spirit of the championship". I don't see much difference between someone detuning their car to fit into a class and upgrading their car to be at the top of a class. The only difference would appear to be cost and the knowledge that their car was ever higher than the class limit??

 

Detuning seems to be happening in Class 2 and Class 3 at the start of this year and Phil Cook is proposing to do it over the winter if Class 3 allows TB's. Should they all be at the bottom of Class 4 to keep the spirit?

[Stuart Miller 7]

Agreed but:

My point being that de-tuning a 185bhp car into class 3 or a 220BHP car into class 4 is perhaps not quite in the spirit, not that it shouldn't be allowed.

Back to what I think everyone wants is reasonably fair and level competition.  If we actually used "in the spirit" regulation then we might achieve this.  e.g.  If Mr class 3 ran 175BHP on throttle bodies he would be competitive in class 4 if he didn't have to compete against the 1.9scholar 220BHP car detuned down to 190BHP.

Just a thought .......... would keep everyone's costs down too.

[mikes]

Hmm.... not sure what I think is the best now*confused*

I was quite looking forward to using the 'other' setting on the Emerald and using the whole 205.7 BHP recorded on the rolling road just before Anglesey. It apparently made 220bhp on the dyno when first built, but obviously my co-driver Chris has worn it out a bit*wink*

I do have the feeling that we need to do something new in C4 for next year - at some of the events it was only Jeremy and myself and a 2 entry class - even if competitive, which it was, is not what most of us want. If we are likely to attract a whole new group of people with 190 bhp that is fine, let's keep it, but I am not sure there are many around that 'naturally' fit into that limit anymore, and realistically, any people trying it for the first time are highly unlikely to get their R400 detuned to dip their toes in.

I can be persuaded either way, but I think at the moment I would vote for the raised limit to 210bhp.

Mike

[Leg]

I agree with you 100% Mike - I would prefer to see bigger classes, and am quite happy for the Class 4 limit to go to 210bhp. My point in starting this thread was not to object to the 210bhp but to get a debate going regarding what this will do to Class 5 and some of the lower powered Class 4 cars. I would be happy to see fewer Classes, not more, so my vote would go for amalgamating the big engined Duratec's and BUSA's, raising Class 4 to 210bhp, and raising Class 3 to 170bhp.

[Drumster]

Well, as an infrequent C4 competitor this is how I see it.

I guess I'm not overly bothered either way on the power limit as my driving (sadly) doesn't allow me to be really competitive, but I 'compete' in the club events for the fun and camaraderie and to achieve my own PBs, but I often wonder if others don't bother because there is no point unless they feel they can be competetive? Perhaps the problem lies in that the club championship is seen my many (that I have spoken to) to be cliquey and very competetive and therefore people seem unwilling to dip their toe into the water 'just for fun'. Maybe, lack of disposabe income has an effect after all even the club trackdays are nowhere near as popular as a decade ago....

When I purchased my 7 some fifteen years ago I could pretty well name most models, their engine variants and power such was the small number of models on the market, but fast forward to now, the variations in standard models has accumulated plus there are now non-standard engines such as Zetec, Busa etc..... I can't see how one set of rules will ever please everybody. Give it another few years and and we'll probably see more models and they won't fit the existing or proposed classes easily. So someone is always going to feel under-powered/non-competetive.

Surely, for the sake of the championship we should have a set of classes based on power and when competitors join they simply fall into a specific class rather than continually changing classes to encourage owners of current models to join (which as has already been said doesn't seem to happen). Probably a far too simplistic view but hey ho.......

 

[Cookie Monster]

Phil Cook is proposing to do it over the winter if Class 3 allows TB's 

Er - not quite - my car has been mapped at 154.9bhp at max power, not de tuned, as its slightly down on compression on no.1

That was at the Two Steve's although it seems that Northampton Motorosport r/r  is the benchmark.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mark Durrant]

I recommend the power limit remains unchanged and suggest before any change in the regs competitors are consulted. I do not believe it is fair to give twelve months notice of a change agreed by a few to those who compete and will be left with additional cost. . I can understand what you are trying to achieve however, do you know how many R400D's are in the UK and of that number how many have expressed an interest in the championship? If we continually change the regs to suit Caterhams current model range we will never have a consistent class structure and people will compete elsewhere.

[Stuart Miller 7]

I would say, leave as it is......

If you want the detail, go to class 2 / 3 page.

Equally happy if it changes though, just think it's better for the championship this way around.

[david nelson]

Time to be unpopular.

I only went into class 5 as class 4 times were harder to acheive. It is not rocket sciance to see that a 210bhp seven can not live with a 260bhp seven. I see no point in going back to class 5 next year as being 50 bhp is too big a gap.

Class 4 at 190bhp is an oddity. I read that we have not seen any R400D's but going to 210BHP also opens up to those club members who have taken there SLR or R400K to the rollers and are above 190bhp. 

We should not be suprised that we are in some want of a mess as it was easy to see it coming. If the class 4 BHP remains at 190BHP it will be the same people as if it was 210bhp just less fun.

may be we should keep it at 190bhp as its in our own self intreast and excludes other members from joining this class. 

 

 

[Nigel Fox]

I've got my engine in bits. It would be helpful to know the outcome of this discussion very soon in order to decide how to proceed.

[Matthew Willoughby]

Nigel,  a group of us are having a conference call on Thursday to decide a way forward on all the matters discussed in the tech forum and we will provide feedback shortly thereafter.