Rob Board Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Having removed my drive shafts for painting it seems that to aid the removal of the rear calipers and from an engineering point of veiw it would be a good idea to fit a flexi brake line into the caliper, instead of the rigid pipe. (I beleive Rob Walker mentioned on a recent post he thought that over time the pipe would work hardend due to flexing.) Basically can anyone tell me where I could order custom length Goodridge lines, and does anyone have any thoughts, or is this a bad idea . Looking at it simplisticly I thought it would aid maintenance ten-fold, by being able to manouver the caliper, instead of fighting with it. Thanks in advance Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Dent Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Ive done this. try earls.co.uk excellent service and delivery 4 wheels on my 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnty Lyons Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 I built mine like that in 97 has given no problems 22k miles road and track. jj N.I. L7C AO. Membership No.3927. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted January 12, 2003 Leadership Team Share Posted January 12, 2003 If I remember correctly there was a thread on this some time back - poss a couple of years! I think the info at the time was along the lines of the road cars being fitted with solid lines, and the race cars having Goodridge type flexi fittings. Something to do with the flexi-fittings being more prone to ingress of water into the fluid, whereas solid fittings don't have the problem - hence their use on the road cars. The flexi option is fitted to the race cars for ease of changing brake bits quickly etc, obviously compromising on the problem. However, my ex racer has flexis fitted, and as stated by others, they don't seem to cause any problems, and cure a load of obvious headaches!. The technical reasoning may be purely academic? Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Board Posted January 12, 2003 Author Share Posted January 12, 2003 Thanks Once Again Guys. Andrew/John, as you have both done it could you tell me what fittings I need. I would imagine just 3/8 BSP Male/Female adaptors to fit to the hose to the calipers? My big dilemma is do you recommend removing all the rigid pipe, or as I was thinking just a few inches, or what????. If I am to leave the rigid in I intend to cut it back as appropriate and flare the end and fit a nut to connect the flexi? Any thoughts gratefully received. Cheers Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miraz Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Caterham do have a kit of flexi lines for this conversion - istr it worked out cheaper than earl's when I costed it all up. Miraz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 It's the fittings that cost, the pipes cheap (relatively). If you're going to change anything then it's easier to remove all the solid pipe and replace it with two lengths of flexible from the tee piece to the calipers. From a recent thread on Se7ens list the calipers are M10x1 thread and the tee piece is 3/8 UNF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Oh and don't get male ends on each end as you'll never get both tightened together without the braided pipe trying to do a spiral. Get female ends on the pipe (which are cheaper too) and male male adaptors. Screw the male male adaptors permanently into the tee piece and caliper and then connect up with the female ends. Also if you get bulkhead male male fittings then they are longer and so will seal in the bottom of the hole on the taper rather than those dappy copper washers that always seem to leak. And if you're doing it this way then why not standardise on one type of female fitting on the hose (I use 1/8 BSP rather than M10 or 3/8 UNF as it's half the price for some reason). Then get M10 male bulkhead to BSP male adaptors for the rear calipers, 3/8 UNF to BSP male male adaptors for the tee piece etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Richards. Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Rob I'm planning on doing this very job this coming weekend. I have never been happy with rigid brake pipe across the de dion, with the movement of the caliper during wear and the flexing during use. Also if calipers are removed for cleaning and freeing up it means bending the flexible pipe. I have purchased pipe and fittings from Europa, but many places will supply. Chelspeed is right in that 3 way has imperial 3/8" fittings and calipers are M10. I am planning on renewing all with flexible and have bought ordinary male connectors to fit into the 3 way and banjo connectors for the calipers with M10 bolts and appropriate washers - simlar to front caliper/hose configuration. My present pipe is held on to the de dion with cable ties and I know from helping to build a new car recently that the current method of fixing is by P clips to the top of the de dion. I suspect that the de dion on my car will have to come out to drill the appropriate holes for the pop rivets and at the same time I can inspect and clean it and put a bit of waxoyl on various parts of the car. I'll let you know how it goes. Paul R. C7PPR K series that starts when hot!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Board Posted January 13, 2003 Author Share Posted January 13, 2003 Paul. I,d definitley be interested to hear how you get on and any tips/pitfalls once you have finished. Perhaps you could let me know the lenght of your flexis, and once fitted wether they were the right length, or if you did it again there is anything you would change. Better ideas always IMO come along if you have done the job once. Look forward to hearing from you. Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Paul, Did you carry out this work on your car 🤔 I need to do pretty much the same and would be interested to hear how you got on. Brent 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 If we are talking about the standard rear caliper (off the Ford Sierra) then it should ALWAYS be connected with a flexible pipe. Do Caterham do the rigid pipe as standard? Does it connect into the caliper port? The body of the caliper slides to accomodate pad compression during braking and pad wear during the life of the pads. A rigid pipe will seriously compromise the performance for both hydraulic application (ie foot brake) and mechanical application (handbrake). Also the sliding motion of the caliper will work harden Copper brake pipes and cause them to fail. A potentially dangerous 'half-system' failure. Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Barbie Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 I never fitted the fixed pipes on the rear brakes of my car, I think it's daft to have something that will move fixed rigidly. I run flexible, high quality hoses from the T-piece along the top of the DD tube. I sourced all the bits from Demon Tweeks, give Dave Kimberley a call and he can sort you out as he knows what you'll need. I have the hoses running not straight from the T-piece but arranged such that they loop back on themselves from each side. Now to be honest, they are only like this because Arnie Webb reckoned it should be so, but it got approving nods at SVA so it's worth bearing in mind when thinking about the lengths. If you want I can take some quick digpics and e-mail them as my car is apart for upgrades right now so access is easy. Edited by - Count on 28 Jan 2003 11:14:21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Count, Can you send me some digi-pics please. I need to get mine sorted in a couple of weeks so would appreciate any other advice. Brent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 I have just fitted flex hoses. You need male 3/8 UNF at the tee as Chellspeed posted and I used 20 degree offset extended banjos at the caliper end fixed with M10X1 banjo bolts and two 7/16 copper washers. The hose is better cut to suit your car and routing 1.4M is more than enough. I cannot comment yet if this has solved my long standing problem with pad knock off/laytencey/peddle travel but it was certainley easier to bleed the calipers being able to move them around to get the air out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Barbie Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Brent, I'll take some pics tonight and mail them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Count, Thanks for that . Could you please mail them to:- brent@idl-ductwork.co.uk It's just that my office pc is a lot faster and I have a better colour printer here. Cheers Brent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Richards. Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Not completed the job yet. Have taken everything apart and then discovered that the male imperial ends for the pipe were not long enough and hexagon part bottomed out in the 3 way T piece before they sealed. Also decided to do a few more jobs whilst the car was in bits and went away for the weekend. Doesn't seem much rush to complete with the current weather ☹️ Will be resuming the job this next weekend as l have swapped the ends for longer ones and am awaiting some P clips to secure hoses to axle. I think the thing I need to beware of is making sure the pipe from the T piece doesn't foul the diff (especially with longer ends). The flexible pipes do not bend as tightly as the rigid pipe and may not be able to bend onto top of de dion quickly enough. Perhaps this is why Arnie has recommended to Count the looping back of the pipes. I will post further info in due course together with all part numbers once job is complete. Paul R. C7PPR K series that starts when hot!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Gibb Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Count, I could use a look at these pics too if you wouldn't mind. I am mailing you with my address. Thanks, Paul L7 FUN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Richards. Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 I managed to finish off the brake pipes this weekend, but not yet been able to road test (awaiting snow to clear and loan of 200lbs ft torque wrench for hubs). Pedal however seems firm enough after bleeding. It is important to make sure that the brake pipe does not foul on the diff (or anything else for that matter) during normal axle travel. Brake pipe is therefore routed along the top of the de dion tube and I used P clips to secure it. The original Caterham instruction with my car was to secure using cable ties, but later cars have holes pre drilled on top of de dion tube for P clips. Bearing in mind that the flexible hose does not bend through as tight a radius as the rigid pipe I found the best route was to make the pipes across the axle longer and route in a loop to the opposite side of the 3 way. This also meant that the length of the pipe did not need to be as exact i.e. I could make the pipes a little longer and ‘lose’ some of the length in the routing. I used banjo fittings at the caliper end and normal male connectors in the 3 way. I purchased the following parts (via mail order) from Europa Specialist Spares in Burton upon Trent (01283 815609):- Rubber covered aluminium P Clips 6.5mm diameter – stock code PA51 – Pack of 10 – £4.86. 2 metres of Goodridge brake Hose 3/16 (I had about 1 foot left) stock code 600-03 - £5.60 per metre. 2 off Braided fitting banjo 3 - stock code 5091–03P - £4.61 each 2 off Banjo bolts 10 x 1 metric – stock code 992-03-31P - £0.88 each. Washers (copper) – 4 off for use on banjo bolts – no stock code - £0.24 each. 2 off 3/8 x 24 UNF bulkhead fittings – stock code – 443- 03P - £5.27 each. Please note I had to change the male fittings from 441-03P to 443-03P as the originals were not long enough and bottomed out before sealing. Also note prices do not include VAT and carriage, so I guess you’re looking at around £50 in total. Tips:- 1. Definitely use the P clips – they appear spot on for size of pipe and appear to hold nice and secure and look the business. I used 5mm pop rivets to secure. 2. I removed de dion tube to carry out the work, but was doing other jobs at the same time. You can probably carry out the job leaving de dion tube in situ, but will need to remove boot floor to gain access. 3. Even if you decide to remove de dion tube, still remove boot floor as it makes the job so much easier. 4. Don’t loop hose too close to bottom of de dion tube where axle stand might rest. 5. Be careful positioning the banjo fittings, making sure that they don’t catch the caliper and bear in mind any potential movement with wear of the pads or flexing under heavy braking. I’ve not mastered how to link to pictures yet, but have some pictures available and can e-mail on request. Paul R. C7PPR K series that starts when hot!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Richards. Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Colin Grundy - are you out there. I have tried to reply to your e-mail, but have a problem with my computer. Please let me have your email address and I will send reply. Paul R. C7PPR K series that starts when hot!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Bit puzzled by some of the stuff here. The only time the the copper pipe needs to move is when you take the calliper off to change the brake pads. They flex plenty to allow this. Otherwise it sits there complete motionless, the callipers like the tube, like the hose going up and down all the same. There is always a flex hose from the car bulkhead to the union on the live axle or Dedion tube. Caterham fit the copper cos it works and it's cheaper. My racing pics, 7 DIY, race prep. Updated often here Photo's of the year here Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Steve, You are wrong the sliding portion of the caliper moves as the pads wear, this then stresses the brake pipes. So when you put your foot on the brake the pipe is pulled outward, and when you take your foot off the pipe will act like a spring and unsettle/pull the sliding portion away from the disc. bear in mind we are only talking half a mm at most but its enough to give you a nasty peddle. The other potential long term consequence of this is the eventual work hardening of the brake pipes and possible failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Grundy Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Thanks to the contributions of this thread, I carried out this conversion in swopping over to rear braided hoses yesterday and it makes for a far better and more professional looking job. Why caterham put those rediculous solid pipes on the rear amazes me. Just hope the SVA inspectors are impressed. Thanks to Dave Kimberley at DT for his advice by the way, (and to Tony and Simon without whos help and assistance this conversion would not have been possible, they were a good couple of bleeders !!) 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Rob, That is quite so and I take it all back. I would have thought the brake pipe went in to the fixed part of the calliper not the sliding part, but it does. The big question is... Who has had a pipe failure then. Jason B's car at 55K miles is the highest miler I know of with no problem so far. My racing pics, 7 DIY, race prep. Updated often here Photo's of the year here Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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