Jon Stewart Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I thought I'd take the 7 up to Biggleswade on Saturday evening to see the Lancaster flypast. I stopped for petrol en route, jumped back in to restart and was met with just clicking from the starter motor. Breakdown recovery turned up and we then tried to jump start it but without success. He thought the starter motor has had it. I got the car recovered to home, left the battery charging over-night and was still getting the clicking. I'd been down to Buckmore Park and back on the Saturday morning with no issues. I'm a complete numpty when it gets to electrical issues so was wondering where I should start looking? A new Powerlite starter was fitted approximately 18 months ago and I've just had a small alternator and pulley system fitted about 6 weeks ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted August 18, 2014 Member Share Posted August 18, 2014 1 What's the battery voltage with the charger disconnected and nothing turned on? 2 Have a good look at all the feeds and earths that are anywhere near the battery and starter. 3 How much have you used it in the last six weeks? 4 Have you had a chance yet to read the archives on "starter click"? Jonathan Edited by - Jonathan Kay on 18 Aug 2014 14:45:09 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Stewart Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 Thanks Jonathan. 1. Battery was showing 12.5v when tested by the Green Flag man. 2.I had a quick look around but nothing seemed amiss. I'll have a good look tomorrow night. 3. Just the once about 3 weeks ago. It started on the button and did 120 miles on Saturday morning. Left it for a few hours, started first time, drove 16 miles then no re-start. 4. I had a search and came up with quite a few topics Some further reading tonight for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keybaud Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 If your battery is fully charged, put a voltmeter on it when you crank the engine. If it drops to below 11V, the battery may need replacing. If it stays at a high voltage, put a voltmeter across the 12v signal wire that is in between the 2 'chunky' connections on the starter motor and crank the engine. If this is low, you are suffering a drop between the battery and the starter motor. Test the battery again, after this, to confirm that the drop is at the signal wire and not that the battery has given up between tests. I was going to make a post today about my XE starter motor woes, so I'll tag it onto this one to avoid multiple XE starter motor posts on the same day...and to keep JK happy. 😬 I have traced and checked every cable from the battery to the starter motor and back again, in an effort to resolve my starting problems and I have now discovered that the problem is nothing to do with the starter motor itself or any of the wiring to and from it. I had a low voltage at the solenoid, which seemed to cause the starter to engage and disengage erratically, although it didn't 'click'. I replaced or tested all the cables and stripped and rebuilt the starter motor, but the problem remained. This weekend I removed all the connections from the back of the ignition and tested the starter with each individual connection and I found that I only get the voltage drop when one of 2 cables are connected. Unfortunately, the wiring has been modified in the past to fit a kill switch and I'm not sure what the 2 cables actually do. They are white, but so are 2 other cables and these don't cause the voltage drop. I am starting to think the culprit is the alternator; however, I need to work out how to test this. I will dig out the wiring layout from the manual this evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Although quite exciting for someone with little electrical knowledge, I'd also suggest bypassing all the various switches, relays and wires and have a go at touch-starting the solenoid trigger wire to battery-positive. During the dark days of the k-click (and failing starters) on my k-series, bypassing the starter-button, relays etc. was a good test to help narrow down the problem. Often, the solenoid would throw with great gusto and the engine would burst into life - hinting that a wiring/switch or relay was at fault rather than the battery or starter. If you are not electrically-confident, the sparks you get when you touch the test lead (that you'll also need to construct from a suitable bit of wire and simple connectors*) might put you off. *depending on clearance etc. you might be able to use a single jump-lead - but there is a reasonable chance that you could short something else out with the clumsily-large connectors etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted August 18, 2014 Member Share Posted August 18, 2014 Quoting keybaud: I have traced and checked every cable from the battery to the starter motor and back again, in an effort to resolve my starting problems and I have now discovered that the problem is nothing to do with the starter motor itself or any of the wiring to and from it. I had a low voltage at the solenoid, which seemed to cause the starter to engage and disengage erratically, although it didn't 'click'. I replaced or tested all the cables and stripped and rebuilt the starter motor, but the problem remained. This weekend I removed all the connections from the back of the ignition and tested the starter with each individual connection and I found that I only get the voltage drop when one of 2 cables are connected. Unfortunately, the wiring has been modified in the past to fit a kill switch and I'm not sure what the 2 cables actually do. They are white, but so are 2 other cables and these don't cause the voltage dropHave you done Myles' jumping trick? Jonathan PS: Today I am mostly happy. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted August 18, 2014 Member Share Posted August 18, 2014 Quoting Jon Stewart: 1. Battery was showing 12.5v when tested by the Green Flag man. 2.I had a quick look around but nothing seemed amiss. I'll have a good look tomorrow night. 3. Just the once about 3 weeks ago. It started on the button and did 120 miles on Saturday morning. Left it for a few hours, started first time, drove 16 miles then no re-start. 4. I had a search and came up with quite a few topics Some further reading tonight for me.It does sound like insufficient smoke at the solenoid: the canonical click-causer. Would you feel happy trying the jumping trick and reporting back? If that doesn't work it still can be due to bad earths: as that trick only jumps the feed. You're probably at the point where it's worth disconnecting, inspecting, cleaning and reconnecting all the earths. Jonathan PS: Do you have a multimeter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keybaud Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Quoting Jonathan Kay: Have you done Myles' jumping trick? Yes, and it 'jumps into life', hence my removing all the cables out of the back of the ignition switch to isolate the cable from the ignition switch to the solenoid for testing and to be able to remove it from the list of possible causes. Relays? Vx engine cars don't appear to have them! I have just looked at the wiring diagram from the Caterham build manual, but it looks like it was drawn in pencil, by hand, on A5 and then blown up to A4 to prevent anyone actually being able to interpret it! Edited by - keybaud on 18 Aug 2014 18:52:51 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted August 18, 2014 Member Share Posted August 18, 2014 Which model? Have you asked BC for diagrams already? Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mavic82 Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Sorry can't help on either query other than to say I am on my third starter motor. I find the geared Bosch ones best of the OE variants but even so with a raised compression turnover is a bit sluggish. Would like to change to a Brise unit to save weight and add some umpf, perhaps we coul start a bulk buy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keybaud Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Quoting Jonathan Kay: Which model? Have you asked BC for diagrams already? Jonathan It's a 1992 Vauxhall Challenge Caterham and I have the Vauxhall build manual from that period; however, I know that the car is on its third ECU loom, so the actual wiring may not correspond to the diagram. I'll start at the alternator next weekend and trace the wiring back to see if it is the 2 white cables I find at the other end. The good news is, I didn't buy a new starter motor, so I've saved myself some work and cash and the rebuild on the old one was needed. Having said this, I was looking at the diagram as I typed this and I've just found the ignition switch with the 4 white wires and the feed to the solenoid, so I'll look at them in more detail tomorrow. The previous owner added a kill switch and I appear to have too many cables coming into the ignition switch! Edited by - keybaud on 19 Aug 2014 12:52:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 I gave up trying to trace the wiring on my k-series (it has an FIA, aircraft-ignition and starter-button switches) at one point and just wired in a clean feed to a fresh relay (in place of the dreaded Rover MFRU) that I could understand and knew to be good. Sometimes replacement is the best option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Much as it pains me to say it Jon (weird that the usual suspects haven't suggested it), but have you checked the various engine earth straps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revilla Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Quoting Jonathan Kay: If that doesn't work it still can be due to bad earths: as that trick only jumps the feed. You're probably at the point where it's worth disconnecting, inspecting, cleaning and reconnecting all the earths. I think they did suggest it ... Edited by - revilla on 19 Aug 2014 10:44:26 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Stewart Posted September 8, 2014 Author Share Posted September 8, 2014 I finally got round to having a look at this over the weekend (two young boys running around and holiday took precedence). I checked all earths which seemed OK and then connected the starter directly to the battery. Exactly the same thing happened which leads me to believe the starter is goosed 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revilla Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 It does sound like it but ... "goosed" may in fact just be a case of cleaning and lubricating. Just a thought before you splash out on a new one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Stewart Posted September 8, 2014 Author Share Posted September 8, 2014 I've no intention of getting a new one just yet- it's a Powerlite unit that's only been on for about 18 months. There's a local auto electrician with a good reputation should it come to it. Next question is...how do I get the top mounting bolt off? I wasn't remotely close to being able to get a socket on it as it fouled with the starter body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revilla Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 If it's like the one one my K-Series in terms of access ... I ended up making a tool. Basically I sliced the "ring" end off a 17mm combi-spanner with an angle grinder to create a stubby open spanner. With this I can turn the nut by 1/2 face, then I have to reverse the spanner and do another 1/2 face etc. The other thing is I can't put the spanner on the nut in the way you normally would ... I sort of insert it around the stud and then slide it along over the nut each time. Of all the fasteners on the whole engine that one is a bit of a pain in the 🙆🏻 but doesn't take long now I've got used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECR Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 I attack that bolt (cap head for me) from the very front of the car with a very long extension bar (make up the length with multiple shorter ones if you haven't got one long enough). The last section is a wobbler bar and ball ended allen key to allow everything to work at an angle. Getting it all into position is a bit of a fiddle (but not too difficult) but loosening/tightening is easy. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain chaos Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Jon The way I release my bolt is to link together 2/3 socket extension bars so the ratchet can be attached beyond the front of the engine just ahead of cam belt cover. It takes a bit of fiddling! I replaced the hex head bolt with an allen headed one which became a bit easier to thread through than a socket. The right hand side area of the block is quite tight for me as I have the titan scavenge pump located here too. In the extreme, you might find that releasing the 2 engine mount bolts and jacking the engine slightly can create a little extra clearance depending upon your set up..(ie carbs, TB's) Germolene is good for the scraped knuckles! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Quoting ECR: I attack that bolt (cap head for me) from the very front of the car with a very long extension bar (make up the length with multiple shorter ones if you haven't got one long enough). The last section is a wobbler bar and ball ended allen key to allow everything to work at an angle. Getting it all into position is a bit of a fiddle (but not too difficult) but loosening/tightening is easy. Good luck & disconnect the battery otherwise the extension bars start glowing 😳 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Stewart Posted September 8, 2014 Author Share Posted September 8, 2014 Thanks all. I have throttle bodies and a titan dry sump pump so access is a bit tight. The top bolt is a hex head and the bottom is a cap head and I can't physically get a socket on the top one. I can only think it was fitted with an open ended spanner when the engine went back in (I had some upgrades by Paul Exon at the time). I'll have another look with a clearer head but I think I might need to pull the steering column and use a spanner 🙆🏻 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECR Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Good point Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Stewart Posted September 8, 2014 Author Share Posted September 8, 2014 I thought I'd make sure and I removed the battery in anticipation! I did think the cable was going to weld itself to the battery post though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_h Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Top tip.... Cover both battery terminal with plastic/insulation tape to prevent accidental shorting. Banner batteries have specific plastic flaps to do this (mine did) but I've changed to a red top but I've still protected the terminals Ps, I use lots of extension bars front front of engine to get to starter bolts. PPS, I don't have ignition on my VX challenge car, and my loom was bespoke but I do have a wiring schematic. Blatmail me if I can help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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