bigsi55 Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Hi, This is my first post on here, so hello! and please be gentle... I have a 2011 Academy car, which I have had off the road over the winter. It was on a trickle charger all winter, and when I got it out of the garage about a month ago it started first time (I thought that was a bit lucky!). The problem is, I drove it for about 10 miles, put it back in the garage, and it now won't start whatever I do (it has been on the trickle charger since, so battery should be fully charged). The engine turns over, but I do not hear the fuel pump priming when I turn the ignition on. I suspect the problem is electrical, but any ideas would be welcome. I have tried the following so far: 1. Added more fuel 2. Swapped all fuses 3. Swapped the relay for the fuel pump with another identical one 4. Pressed the inertia cut off switch 5. Removed the inertia cut off switch and shorted the leads (to confirm the switch isn't faulty) 6. Disconnected the speed sensor 7. Pushed the car with it in gear (to turn the starter motor over) And it still won't start. Does anyone with a bit more experience have any ideas? I have browsed through the threads on here and can't find anything else... Thanks in advance! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Is there an immobiliser ? What voltage across the battery terminals - when standing and as you crank the starter ? Are all fat cables secure ? Especially earths between battery, engine and chassis. Is there a red master switch ? Edit - welcome to BlatChat. Where ate you based ? Edited by - Stationary M25 Traveller on 12 May 2012 21:48:31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millsn Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I'd check if the fuel pump has power. If not figure out why. Most likely you're a dodgy earth somewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelico Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Battery is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigsi55 Posted May 12, 2012 Author Share Posted May 12, 2012 Hi - thanks - I am based in Bath. To start from the top: Yes, there is an immobiliser. It appears to be working as it should (lights flash, then when key is turned and fob placed under the key barrel, the light goes out). I haven't checked the voltage across the battery terminals. The trickle charger seems to indicate that the voltage is at 12V. I have also tried jump starting from another car, so I think the voltage should be correct. I believe all fat cables are secure. I will double check tomorrow. Yes, there is a master cut off switch, which is in the correct position. Millsn - how do I check the fuel pump has power? Does that require removing the boot floor? Pelico - battery appears to be fully charged - all other electrical items are working at full power, and trickle charger indicates it is charged, likewise I did try to start the car by jump starting from my other car. Thanks for the ideas - any more? Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Is there enough fuel in the tank ???? Remove the fuel return to tank line and have someone turn on the ignition, but don't crank the engine. With a suitable cloth to catch it, see if the pump pushes fuel out of the fuel rail. If it does - shout 'stop' quickly ! If not, you have to look for 12V. Edited by - Stationary M25 Traveller on 12 May 2012 22:06:42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelico Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Can you hear the solenoid click ? I am still wondering about the battery...how fat/hot were the jump leads when you tried to jump start. Do you have an FIA switch. They do fail, see the search. Mine has failed to start simply because the FIA switch connectors have come loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigsi55 Posted May 12, 2012 Author Share Posted May 12, 2012 Pelico - I'm a bit rubbish on the electrical side of things. When I turn the ignition I get what sounds like four small clicks from behind the instruments, but I don't hear any noise coming from the fuel pump at all. I do have an FIA switch - will check it in the morning. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin J Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I have a sigma like yours. With the key turned & ignition on you wave the immobiliser chip by the steering column & the rapid flashing of the red led stops & the light goes out. Is there an audible click from under the dash from the immobilise unit? silver box. On mine as this click happens (which is easily heard) the fuel pump primes straight away if fuel pressure has fallen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigsi55 Posted May 12, 2012 Author Share Posted May 12, 2012 Hi Martin, when the light goes out I get what sound like four short clicks from the immobiliser unit rather than one loud click. Thanks, Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markiebabes Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Hi Simon welcome to the club May be worth wiggling the red key ( Battery Master switch ) whilst turning over as sometimes they can have bad connections in the switch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Hi Markie (Red Key) Babes 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin J Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Quoting bigsi55: Hi Martin, when the light goes out I get what sound like four short clicks from the immobiliser unit rather than one loud click. Thanks, Simon That I think is your problem. Mine has never done that. Check out wiring to the unit especially EARTHING. If all fine that unit may have failed or require a reset. Do also check battery voltage (although I doubt this is the problem. A little over 13volts would be nice. Also do you have a spare second chip you can wave by the unit. One is lozenge shaped & the other is built into the larger ignition key, Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millsn Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 You'd have to get under the car and get a multi meter onto the electrical connections under the floor. If theres power them maybe your fuel pump is dead (unlikely) but if not you'd have to start asking why and trace the fault back up the wiring loom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Faulkner Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Hi Simon It sounds unlikely to be your battery but if it's a Banner and you've had it on a trickle charger as opposed to a battery conditioner all over the winter, then I would check your electrolite level if you haven't already. Clive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markiebabes Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Ian 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Strange that you also don't hear the fuel pump priming. Do you have ANY power to the car at all? Can you turn the headlights on? If not then you have some basic electrical problem: 1. Dead battery 2. Wiring to/from FIA switch 3. FIA switch itself 4. Blown fuse Given that the fuel pump's not priming, my guess is it'll be one of these If you DO have power to the lights then mobilise the car, turn the ignition on, make sure it's in neutral and then short the terminals on the solenoid to see if it the starter will turn. Anyone know what the immobiliser does in this installation? IIRC the Rover one would allow the starter-motor to turn but wouldn't give you spark or fuel so you could turn the starter til the battery was flat and it wouldn't ever fire up. I have to assume that yours is the same... (there's no point in immobilising the starter motor as you can always just short the terminals). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Think he said it cranks but doesn't fire, so it is either no fuel, fuel pump not running or battery dropping too low to allow the ECU to operate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigsi55 Posted May 13, 2012 Author Share Posted May 13, 2012 Hi all, Thanks for all the ideas. So far today I have tried the following: 1. Checked the battery voltage using a multimeter - it reads 13.1V across the terminals, which I believe is pretty good. 2. Checked all the "chunky" earths I could see - battery to bell housing, engine to engine mount 3. Took up the boot floor to see what was under there - found that the earth from the fuel tank to the boot floor had broken - so fixed that. Still won't start. I'm pretty sure the tank has enough fuel in it as I drove it into the garage about a month ago, and have since added another 5 litres just for luck. A few people have suggested the FIA switch might be the issue. How do I check that? Various other electrical bits work (lights, starter motor etc), would the FIA switch not affect these as well? Thanks, Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Just bypass it by connecting the output cable to the input stud. Do you get fuel out of the rail with ignition on, as per my previous post ? Have you reconnected the inertia switch and pressed it to reset it ? This switches the fuel pump. Important voltage on the battery is what it drops to when cranking the starter. If below about 9V, the ECU won't run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 You said earth from fuel tank to boot floor ? Trust there is one from fuel tank to chassis somewhere ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Ok, so the starter turns the engine over. Thus it's unlikely to be a problem with the FIA key. Check the operation of your fuel pump by brushing the positive feed to the pump on the + terminal of the battery. If you hear it prime, you have an immobiliser problem, if you don't your problem is somewhere in the wiring to the fuel pump, the fuel pump itself or the fuel line/fuel rail (blockage?) If you have an immobiliser problem, you've probably got no spark either - the appropriate manual will tell you how to check this. Does the immobiliser unit have any lights on it? Is there a sequence for resetting it? Does the air intake smell of petrol (is it flooded?) Is there a method for clearing a flooded sigma (eg. Crank for 1 min with throttle floored)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin J Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 I still think it's strange that the immobiliser is giving four short clicks instead of one positive one My sigma has never done that. It must be a problem with that unit or associated wiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin J Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 edit to say, check the group of thin earth wires under the bonnet screwed to the bulkhead beside the ECU. When I finished building my kit the engine refused to do anything & it was because of a poor earth connection at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigsi55 Posted May 14, 2012 Author Share Posted May 14, 2012 Hi all - thanks for all the help so far. I've done so many diagnoses on her I feel like I'm in an episode of House... The latest battery of tests reveal: Battery voltage when cranking drops to 10.6V (from 12.9ish), so that sounds OK if 9V is what you need to kick the ECU into action. Removed the fuel hose and turned the ignition on. I got a dribble of fuel from what was already in the fuel line, but no spurts of fuel from the pump, suggesting to me the fuel pump isn't being properly primed (backed up by no sound when the ignition is turned on). Checked the voltage across the FIA switch - reads 12.9 when switched off, 0 when on, which to me says it is working OK. Have checked and tightened as many earths as I could find both little and large (two by the ECU, all the fat ones under the bonnet, a couple under the scuttle on either side, the fuel tank to chassis one) and still no joy The one interesting thing I did find was when checking the voltages to the fuel pump. When the ignition is on, there only appears to be just under 5V going to the fuel pump. I can't quite understand this - I am assuming I need 12V to kick it into life. I am basing this on the voltage differences between the four wires going to the fuel pump. The four are: YG168 - which appears to be the earth - runs to the inertia cut off switch GB168 - which appears to be the live SG196 B10 The difference between SG196 and GB168 is just under 5V, and the difference between B10 and GB168 is also just under 5V. YB168 to all the others is 0. Does this shed any more light, and any ideas where 7V is being lost? Thanks, Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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