Pros and cons of Nitrons?

[anthonym]

I'm confused, so nothing new there.

 

First question is why exactly are Nitron dampers better or the best? Compared to my R500k Bilsteins.

Sure, "better ride" but how do they achieve that?

 

AND

 

I have heard it said that use of Nitrons has been implicated in de dion failure. Now I do not wish to create any controversy here, please. I simply want to understand what this is all about. As I recall the idea was something about where Nitrons had been used on an earlier dedion version that did not have the additional welding around the damper fixings; something like that.

 

To date I have supposed that to provide better ride, which presumably means more feel of control by means of more road contact through more responsive dampers, results also in more strain on the dedion fixings area, and so the dedion failure. I have a feeling this was a track use matter.

 

I suppose that using the very latest tech (nitrons) on older tech (older dd) it can be seen as not surprising that the older tech might need some additional support or strengthening etc, which is of course what has been created over time.

 

Why am I interested? Because I drive on many uneven and very uneven roads where control can be compromised, so something that would improve my experience is of interest.

 

Anthony

[rj]

Nitrons have significantly less static friction than the Bilsteins. I think Öhlins are better still. The recovery of grip is much better on the Nitrons - have no experience of the Öhlins, but have been told that they're yet a step forward.

 

In my experience controlling the car on the edge is much easier with the Nitrons compared to the Bilsteins.

 

Edited by - RJ on 30 Aug 2011 08:08:50

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Great question Anthony. I shall follow it with interest (particularly if others can add the analytical perspective which Regin has displayed).

As you say "better" and "transformed" offer no information about the differences.

[jackb_ms]

I will following this conversation with great interest also.

 

Jack

[Shaun_E]

I have run all 3 so have a little input to the discussion - my apologies for the long post.

Most people "upgrade" to Nitrons as they are a good quality adjustable damper (the Bilsteins do not have adjustable damping). Invariably the upgrade is made when the Bilsteins have been on the car for some time and may be past their best. The result is that fitting the Nitrons is a big improvement. Certainly when I fitted a set to my Superlight the car control was much improved (the ride was much firmer though). At the same time people tend to fit a stiffer spring than standard (250 or 225 lb/in fronts and 140 or 150 lb/in rears) as I did. Again this alters the ride/handling (not necessarily for the better if it is a road car). Damping has to be matched to the spring rates - the adjustable feature allows fine tuning of this. Once I found a set-up I liked I left it there.

A couple of years ago I upgraded to Ohlins 2 way adjustables. I reduced the front spring rate from 250 to 225 and the rear from 150 to 140. Ride improved a little but car control was much better - I felt much more confident with the car. IMO the Ohlins is a better damper and the valving was well matched to the spring rates (by Aurok the UK importer). Again, after a few events, I found a setting I liked and have not changed it since.

This year I had to change class in the sprint championship (due to an engine failure) and 2 way adjustables are not allowed so I borrowed a set of Bilsteins on standard springs. I am amazed at how good a damper the Bilstein is and the ride is so much better with standard springs. Where I can really notice the difference though is on the very fast bumpy corners (e.g. Folly at Castle Combe and Fordwater at Goodwood) - it is here that the Bilstein comes unstuck compared with the Ohlins. 90% of the time the Bilsteins are absolutely fine but on the very limit there are some shortcomings.

There isn't a straight answer but do not underestimate how good the standard springs adn dampers are - Caterham spent a long time getting to those settings and it works pretty well in most instances. If you want the best then Ohlins are excellent and will improve the control of the car but think carefully about the spring rates you want and get the damping set to match those springs. The Nitrons are a nice product and if you really want them I suggest you talk to Simon at 7 tips about the "Nitron by Aurok". For road use only there is another choice - Black Art Designs which would be worth looking at.

 

Edited by - Shaun_E on 30 Aug 2011 08:57:41

[NoLimits]

I will add to this thread on Technical only side.

 

There is a further step to be made on the Nitron damper as they have been re engineered by Aurok (of Ohlins fame).

 

From the outside the units look the same but internally they have been completely re engineered.

The reason behind the noticeable difference from the standard Nitron to the Aurok version is due to the internal valving.

The forces and flow rate across the piston and through the shaft are better than standard, allowing more control of the fluid flow which gains efficiently, thus making a noticeable difference to the handling performance and ride quality. (Over standard Nitron's)

 

Currently the standard Nitron is mainly using rebound forces to control the collapse of the spring and is running approximately twice as much rebound as bump.

The Nitron by Aurok damper will run similar forces bump to rebound with bump being just slightly stronger as it gives better stability of the vehicle using the bump to control the collapse of the spring instead.

 

I have driven a car on these and they are a significant step forward from standard.

 

However as I understand your type of car use Anthony I would not be looking at Nitron's but at a Road biased damper such as Black Art Designs.

 

They are so significantly different its a mindset change to understand how they are intended to work.

 

If anyone is interested I will email the detail of how this is achieved. Or I can post here as a direct response to a question.

 

[peter clarke]

Use mine only on the road these days, and some of the Belgium roads are still wrough!! Went from standard to Billy's and found them great on the smooth roads but not on the poor ones. Went, in steps, from 175 to 250 on front and progressive to 200 on the rear. Not over happy on the road. Went to Nitrons with 250 and150 set to 18 clicks from hard and found big improvement on road use. This was in terms of "comfort" (well sort of) and feel of the car and response was improved. Then switched to Eibach 225 front 140 rear and settled on 14 clicks front and 18 clicks from hard on rear. Found this surprisingly further improved ride/feel. Would be tempted to have the Nitrons modified if possible but have not looked into that yet. Use 13 inch wheels R888, orange front rear arb first hole. Condition of Nitrons after 5 years is as new.

Peter

[NoLimits]

Unfortunately the Standard Nitrons can not be modified to Aurok Spec - well not economically anyhow.

 

The body of the damper is actually larger diameter to accommodate the new innards.

 

You would end up throwing most of the existing set away ☹️ As you say they will be like new.

 

There is of course a strong second hand value to them.

[Pendennis]

I have raced on Nitrons for 7 years, over that time it has been on two sets of NTR's. Although I specified their valving each time, both sets had to be returned for re-valving before I was happy with their performance.

 

IMHO, unless your prepared to go through this sort of excercise I would be surprised if they would be any better than any other after market off the shelf item.

My current set is now perfect for my Caterham, but just because it has Nitron on them doesn't mean they would suit your car or be any better than the Bilsteins

I certainly am not putting Nitron down, not all, I like my mine But just passing on my opinion based upon my experience, thus if your car is just roadgoing I suggest you should be getting the most economical acceptable solution, doubt if it necessitates spending £1200.00 though

[myothercarsa2cv]

Con - cost

Pro - bling 🥰

 

Maybe you'd be better off with the standard billies, watts link rear end, and bump steer corrected rack to stop bumpy roads trying to throw you into a hedge (or off a cliff in your case, Anthony ), from a cost point of view anyway.

 

Surely, whether you have Nitrons or not, if your geometry is out, the car will still pull you all over the gaff.

[bluenose]

I would have thought having some sort of adjustability with the damping for fast road/track and touring would be good compared to the fixed Bilsteins 🤔, but I suspect that the touring set up i.e. fully wound off, would be too track focused and the fully wound on setting just too extreme for use on either road or track. Would really be intersted to know because I feel my car is too stiffly damped, even though the springs rates are quite low, although it is quite light being a BEC.

 

Nick

 

[Pendennis]

Bluenose, my advice would be get it sprung stiffer and damped softer

[peter clarke]

 

Maybe the Nitrons were expensive but I found the Billies great for smoothish roads and track but terrible on secondary roads. The adjust height facility is essential. The adjustment of damping equally so. I put the Billies on for a while after I had used Nitrons and same conclusion. Softer back end and firmer damped front suits me. I like oversteer and you can make it work.

[Simon Owen]

Some pics of the Black Art Design dampers can be seen below ....

 

here

 

I have not tried them on track yet but on the road they are fab 😬

[anthonym]

(or off a cliff in your case, Anthony )

 

ah yes, indeed staying on the black stuff does have my attention perhaps more than most. 😬

 

Many interesting responses, thank you.

 

I'll keep my billies for the time being as they seem just fine - and I am accustomed to them.

 

Anthony

[Slipper man]

One word of warning (not strictly related to the nitrons/bi stein issue). Earlier this year I tried to 'upgrade' my springs to the standard Caterham race setup. The result was awful on the road, to the point of being dangerous on bumpy surrey roads. Instead of riding the bumps, it bounced across the tops and wet grip and braking were terrible. On smooth race circuits it may be fine, but for road use the standard setup is much better, so I swapped them back again!

[NoLimits]

What Sliperman experienced is fundamentally the same thing that happens on track when over sprung. Its just that on the road you experience it at a slower speed and more violently. It happens on track but because the surface is so smooth you may not feel it but the car is.