Paul Deslandes Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 16 valve Vx engine making around 250bhp. Currently using Peco yellow injectors (480ml/min) but unhappy with reliability and the variability of their spray patterns. Even new ones seem inconsistent in this regard. When mapping (Steve at Track n' road) we had to adjust the fuel pressure to ensure that there was enough to fuel correctly at max power but not be uncontrollable at tick over. Final setting was approx 40psi and quite critical. The ECU is MBE 967 and I understand that newer designs can control the injector to higher resolution so easier at bottom end. It seems that these injectors are the only ones available with suitable flow rate as I can't find a Bosch type to suit. I'd be interested to know what injectors others are using for this sort of power level and their fuel pressure setting, ECU type etc. I don't want to go to twin injectors which would be another way of overcoming the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Flatters Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Paul, I'm also using the Peco 480 flow injectors and Stevie had similar issues when mapping mine. True to say he's done a pretty stonking job, nonetheless . SBD's INJ 690's (690cc 12.5 ohm) might do the job. I have verified with them that they would be compatible with my set-up . *arrowright*Harry Flatters *arrowright* AKA Steve Mell - Su77on Se7ener Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Deslandes Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 Hi Steve Steve G always does a fantastic job and my car is fine for a while after its been in his hands. I've had several Pecos fail, either completely or with poor spray patterns that don't respond to cleaning. I took all mine to SBD earlier this year after I had a problem at a French hill climb - the engine started to run very hot suggesting lean fuelling - and when tested, even new ones weren't much better. I'm going to do some remedial work on the engine this winter, including getting the crank, clutch and flywheel balanced, and want to get Steve G to check the mapping. But I don't want to get there and find the injectors are playing up and waste an afternoon/evening and several hundred quid! The injectors you mention would need to be wound down on pressure, otherwise the tickover control will be horrible, and I don't know what that will do to the spray pattern. I assume these are Pecos as well. From memory, my injectors were running at close to 98% duty cycle at full-bore which is really too close to 100% for comfort but it was the only way Steve G could get the idle nearly right at a sensible pressure. I came down to the club parking area at Wings and Wheels on Sunday but must have missed you. I had a good four blats down the runway and topped out at a true 137mph although I'm not sure it did my transmission any good as its even noisier now. That's another job for the winter. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Flatters Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Aaah, that was you, was it Paul . Sorry I missed you ☹️. *arrowright*Harry Flatters *arrowright* AKA Steve Mell - Su77on Se7ener Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannylt Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Ammo went back to using four Peco 480's on my 310bhp Duratec with Emerald K3, to circumvent some drivability issues with the 8 injector setup at swap over. Idle isn't bad, and I don't remember them being anywhere near maxed out, though this is at 3.8bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Deslandes Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 Danny, yes you'd need the extra pressure at your power level and it may be that the Emerald is more capable than the older 967 MBE ECU of controlling the injectors at very low duty cycles. Its a maths resolution thing apparently 😬. You'd also be able to run at a maximum duty cycle of closer to the recommended 80% flat out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k80rum Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I think it's the Bosch green injectors you'd be after Paul. I'm using these at the moment after getting a great deal on them 'over the pond' Full details of them are at the bottom of my page here. I reckoned they were good for 272bhp at 80% duty cycle at the expected Brake Specific Fuel Consumption value and 3.8 bar. This would be a 4-injector setup Darren E K80 RUM Website and Emerald maps library Home of the long-term, supercharged Duratec project Edited by - k80rum on 2 Sep 2009 18:22:54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Deslandes Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 Thanks Darren they do look like the right ones. I guess they're the same profile as the regular cream injectors that I used to use so will fit the Jenvey bodies and fuel rail without any mods. The Pecos are a bit shorter so I simply had to shorten the rail/body spacers. did you bring them back in your pocket or mail order them? Would be good to know where from and how much you paid. The Pecos are probably ok and I know a lot of people are using them but I'd be happier with a good old Bosch set. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Paul There is a Pico 490 cc injector that has twelve holes instead of the Pico 480's four. This is supposed to work fine from tickover to flat out. It is even more expensive than the Pico 480. I have supplied a set for a German Touring Car and they seem happy with them. Weber say that hey are supposed to give more power, but then they would say that! I have a set in stock but have not tried them yet. I want to do a back to back test them on Danny's engine to see how good they are. Have sold hundreds of Pico injectors over the years and have never seen one fail. I was an early adopter and saw prototypes before they were available. One problem they had on the Nissan Touring cars was that the tiny fuel filter at the entrance to the injector got obstructed with debris. Once cleaned they were fine. Hardly the injectors fault. I have 330 cc Picos on my 260 bhp Duratec running 3.5 bar for several years and have had no problems at all. I have also run 480 cc Picos on a 250 bhp 2 litre before being upgraded to 280 bhp and it ran fine with both engine specs. I think the 480 Picos can be supplied with two different spray patterns, shower and pencil. Might be that you have a mixed batch? In which case you will never get the spray patterns the same. I would question that you really need 480 cc injectors for 250 bhp. The most I have seen from Pico 330 cc is 265 bhp before they run out of puff. This was at 4 bar if I remember correctly. Maybe a smaller injector with more pressure? That is what I normally do. I have never run any engine with less than 3 bar. Usually 3.5 to 4 bar. The AER 2 litre 520 bhp turbo engine had Pico problems due to vibration. They did away with the connector and had wires coming directly out of the injector. This was the same as the early prototypes I saw. So apart from vibration and filters getting blocked I have not seen any problems with these. Having said that all the injectors I sold were to people using Motec and Pectel. I use Emerald for all my engines. My advice would to be go smaller with the injectors and raise the fuel pressure. The other alternative is to change the ECU I suppose. Hope you get it sorted. Ammo Raceco.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Deslandes Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 Hi Ammo when we cleaned/tested the injectors on an Asnu rig we varied the pressure and the spray pattern remained pretty much the same. We renewed the filters to make sure they were clean beforehand. Higher pressure does intuitively seem the sensible thing to do and I'm sure you're right and a lower rated device will do the job. Is the 330 Peco the brown banded version? I've actually had two Pecos fail completely due to internal mechanical failure rather than the coil failing. That was when I started to lose faith with them and the variable and inconsistent spray pattern just didn't seem right. According to the MM Data Systems data sheet these injectors are only available in pencil stream pattern so I don't think I've got mixed types. If I can get a set of the Bosch at a sensible price I feel I ought to give them a go, even if only to prove you right 😬 How often would you reckon to replace injectors? I guess mine are about 5 years old now and although used pretty hard on sprints and hillclimbs, not really heavy duty use. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Paul Correct, the 330 cc have a brown band. Unless my memory has gone funny (a distinct possibility) I'm pretty sure I have seen two different spray patterns from 480 cc injetors on an ASNU. Maybe I'm getting mixed up with something else. I only replace injectors if they fail and, touch wood, it has never happened to me. I suppose if they got dropped or knocked that could lead to them failing. I have had brand new injectors that were dented. I returned them to my supplier before using them. I sold something like 500 330 cc Picos to Suzuki Japan for their race kits for the Suzuki GSXR World Superbikes. These were lifed just like everything else on the bike, so they got replaced as a preventative measure. When we were racing I changed injectors once a season. Championships were at stake so it is slightly different to my current road use. 90% of my Duratecs have had Picos and nobody has very called me up to order injectors because theirs had failed. If you do go down the smaller injector route let us know how you get on. I'm curious to see what happens. Ammo Raceco.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Deslandes Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 Ammo 😬I saw at least two patterns when we tested my set - pencil, fan and horrible 😬 If I do try the lower rating I'll let you know how I get on. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millsn Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I've got green ones from a VX220 fuel rail got them as new from ebay but not from this seller! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Pico 330 cc's only come with a single stream 20 Degree spray pattern. Ammo the only 12 hole Pico unit is a 935 cc/min unit that is listed it has a 25 degree spray pattern. These are designed to run a maximum of 90% duty cycle. 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Peter I have 490 cc Picos with 12 holes in stock. They are quite new so they might not have made their way onto whoever's list you are looking at. They are on my website but can't seem to do a link. On the fuel injection page and scroll down to the bottom. Didn't know that they made a 935 cc one! Probably for methanol or nutter turbos. I know Pico 330 cc come in only one spray pattern. I have a feeling that the 480 cc come with two but might be wrong. The new 490cc are only a shower pattern. Paul "pencil, fan and horrible" 😬 😬 Good luck with the smaller injectors. Ammo Raceco.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Yes that is probable Ammo, my data book is a couple of years old now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F355GTS Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Paul I'm using the Cosworth Green injectors on both engines (I think they are actaully a Bosch unit), SteveG really rated them for ease of mapping. Burton sell them, buy them with the Duratec fuel rail as it saves you a few quid over buying them individually If it's the Bosch Green injectors (803?) I have a set of these available Burton here Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECR Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 I'm using the green bosch injectors as well. Weber references are: WFI191 Injector- IW031- Green- 16.2 Ohms- 270 cc/min Edited by - ECR on 3 Sep 2009 09:53:52 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Steve G put some Siemans injectors in mine (232bhp) and said they were good for plenty more.................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Deslandes Posted September 3, 2009 Author Share Posted September 3, 2009 Many thanks for all the posts on this subject. I guess I'll have a word with Steve G. sometime and get his input as well and see where I go from here. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Flatters Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Paul, I had a chat to Steve G today and he said that he would either fit the Bosch 608 (green plastic) injectors (£50+VAT each) or the later generation of these that can be found on VXR Vauxhalls. And.... they are nearly half the price. See here for a new set of injectors icluding fuel rail & fpr (chuck those bits) for £120 . Steve said he would probably run these at around 35psi. Hope that helps. *arrowright*Harry Flatters *arrowright* AKA Steve Mell - Su77on Se7ener Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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