Ok Geoff, I get it now!!! I have loved Llandow from my first lap but Llys y Fran was just intimidating last year and first run yesterday as well. Penny dropped on second run, its for hooligans, an asbo would help!!! I had so much fun once I was attacking, all be it still not fast enough but great fun Thanks Chris and everyone, another great weekend As for you Geoff, I may have got a bit lost at Llandow but at least i didn't stop for a cake brake half way up the dam!!