What is the best type of oil?

[david minister]

In response to the current thread reference oil to be used in a Caterham.

 

Those clever people at Comma, in conjunction with Caterham Cars, have blended an engine oil, Caterham Motorsport, specifically to meet the needs of Caterham users. I was fortunate enough to be invited to a Comma Oil Training day recently, where I spoke to the people that mattered. There enthusiasm and attention to the specific requirements of Caterham owners has produced a 5w/50 viscosity, which protects on the high speed track day motoring and also protects on start up for day to day use. Therefore, you should be in no doubt Caterham Motorsport oil is ideal for your cars needs. It is available from Caterham parts department and Minister Racing Engines.

 

Minister prepare a variety of high performance and racing engines in addition to the Caterham R500Evo, R500, R400 etc range.

 

We, and other top engine builders specify Mobil 1 Motorsport in some applications as we have found it to be an excellent and reliable product.

 

I hope this clarifies the situation.

[david minister]

In response to the current thread reference oil to be used in a Caterham.

 

Those clever people at Comma, in conjunction with Caterham Cars, have blended an oil, Caterham Motorsport specifically to meet the needs of Caterham users. I was fortunate enough to be invited to a Comma Oil Training day recently, where I spoke to the people that mattered. There enthusiasm and attention to the specific requirements of Caterham owners has produced a 5w/50 viscosity, which protects on the high speed track day motoring and also protects on start up for day to day use. Therefore, you should be in no doubt Caterham Motorsport oil is ideal for your cars needs. It is available from Caterham parts department and Minister Racing Engines.

 

Minister prepare a variety of high performance and racing engines in addition to the Caterham R500Evo, R500, R400 etc range.

 

We, and other top engine builders specify Mobil 1 Motorsport in some applications as we have found it to be an excellent and reliable product.

 

I hope this clarifies the situation.

 

[ianrm]

come off the fence David and say what you mean! 😬

[Bare]

Oil is a Religious Topic.. Depedant on what one's personal gullibilities are and perhaps even more significantly on what one is trying to sell this week:-)

Multiple postings is a nice touch too.

[robmar]

I am sure that previously it was claimed that the halfrauds stuff was in fact the same oil as the comma stuff, but that now seems to be differnet with ofratings 5-40 (halfrauds) Vs 5-50 caterham motorsport oil

 

I have always used either comma or the halfrauds stuff based on this in the past....

 

rob

[dino ferrana]

The Halfords stuff is the same rating as Comma Syner-Z but is not I believe the same oil. The Caterham motorsport oil is definately nothing to do with the Haflords product and is very different hence the different rating.

 

Bare I think Dave is probably in quite a good position to judge oil being that he builds all of the high performance engines for Caterham? It would not be in his interest to recommend crap stuff if Minsters engines started going pop as a result.

[robmar]

aha - didn't realise there was a caterham motorsport oil different to the coma stuff

 

thanks Dino

[mav]

Rob,

 

The Halfords Oil is produced by Comma, and is 5w-40 not 0w-40 as Dino Suggests.

 

The Halfords oil is very similar to the SYNER G (5w-40), not the SYNER Z (0w-40).

 

 

[Peter Carmichael]

For once I find myself in agreement with Bare. Specification of a single brand and product for a common commodity (oil) is anti-competitive and highly likely to be illegal under the strictest readings of applicable laws of fair trading.

 

It's simple really for the K. SAE 40 hot grade in line with the manufacturers recommendation. Something reasonably runny when cold (0W or 5W, 10W will do). ACEA A3 B3 standard. Halfords in the turquoisey colour bottle is cheap and meets these requirements although I always prefer a 5W or 0W if it is readily available. Mobil 1 non-motorsport fits the bill perfectly.

 

There is a lot of mumbo-jumbo about "race" engines needing a thicker oil, leading to a recommendation of SAE 50 hot grades. Unjustified in my book.

 

The main concern should however be the unmanaged oil temperatures in the wet sump K-series installation. There is colossal windage and consequent heating of oil to temperatures approaching the design limits of seals and gaskets. Sharp temperature gradients stress the materials unnecessarily. Heat soaked engines coming to a standstill suffer hot surface corrosion undermining the head gasket sealing as a result. Oh by the way, a thicker oil makes this worse.

 

As for Caterham Motorsport oil... I would only put my barge pole away if I trusted certain venerable individuals (who recommend it personally) over and above the industry-established testing organisations such as the ACEA. Which I don't. So the barge pole remains firmly in my hands.

[dino ferrana]

I don't know what ACEA standard the Caterham oil is. Would you get such a low volume oil tested by such an organisation I would guess it would be expensive.

 

I am sure Peter is right Comma must have cooked up some rubbishy oil for Caterham for a laugh. No point trying it he says it is bound to be dodgy.

 

FWIW I have used it for the last 4,200 miles and my superlight has yet to expire.

[Nick Woods]

FWIW my 1.6K supersport has now done 47,000 miles on (as far as I know) Comma SynerG or Halfords 5w/40 and the oil pressure at idle is still 4+bar when cold and 2+ bar when hot.

 

 

 

Nick

Red and Black 1.6K supersport

visit Carrotland.co.uk

 

[mav]

Nick,

 

I my experience, and in discussion with those who i trust, INCLUDING Caterham, there is nothing wrong with running a 1.6K SS on Syner g or its equivalent (e.g Halfords 5w-40) and with just over 20k miles on the stuff, my oil pressure is still spot on at 4 cold idle, 2 hot idle and 3.75 to 4 hot at 2K+ rpm

 

😬

 

I see no need to pay 30+ pounds per 5l bottle!

[Nick Woods]

That's exactly what i was getting at .

 

 

Nick

Red and Black 1.6K supersport

visit Carrotland.co.uk

 

[dino ferrana]

Mav I agree with you but the original post was relating to high temperatures on trackdays and worries about protection in these conditions. The new oil specifically caters for those concerns whilst being good day to day.

[AlanB]

Rich,

 

Quote from an email from the well-respected Dave Andrews:

"5/50 is .... more to do with adequate protection over a wide temperature range"

 

HTH,

 

Alan

[Sheds Moderator]

I'm with Ian, Mav and Nick on this one. I believe that any decent oil which meets the right viscosity /ACAE/etc spec is suitable for these engines, whether hammered mercilessly on track or not. These high quality synthetics are all about protecting the engine when it is very hot and at high revs. Brand is as ever a personal choice. I am sure the Caterham recommended Comma works, as does whatever Minister recommends, but they aren't the only things that work. Whether you want to pay £25 a litre or £4 a litre is up to you.

[SLR No.77]

I always used to run Mobil 1 Motorsport in my 1400 SS (fitted with solid followers) and I never had any issues with the oil whatsoever.

After changing to 1800 SS (fitted with hydraulic followers) I started using Comma Syner G, and have suffered bad windage issues, causing oil starvation during both road and track use (even with an Apollo fitted). It's had 3 changes and lots of use since being 1800, all on Comma.

I've now switched back to Mobil 1 (non-Motorsport due to the hydraulic followers) and the windage issues have very much reduced. Just been to Le Mans and back and didn't get any sign of starvation, and didn't need to top up. Welcome change

I've used Mobil 1 for 20 years, excepting my short spree with Comma, and I'll definately be sticking to the Mobil 1 in the future. Only use the Motorsport version if running solid followers - the hydraulic followers are designed for the differing viscosity of the non-Motorsport version. BTW, the followers are a Rover product not a Caterham part.

 

Stu.

 

[mav]

Don't understand how you can have windage issues with one oil and not the other??

 

Surely you will have windage no matter which oil you use?

 

Dino,

 

Prior to fitting a laminova (following discussion with a trusted friend) I was getting temps of circa 120 Deg C in the apollo. This temp was sufficiuent to cause a loss of approx 3/4 to 1 bar pressure.

 

Since fitting th elaminoa i hoave no such issues.

 

Until someone can explain and provide documentaionas to why I should spend twice the money on the Caterham 5/50 or even the extra on 15/50, then I am sticking with Syner G.

[Myles]

I can't understand the windage issue either...

 

...I've only experienced oil-surge issues on a hot test-day at Curborough (on CR500s with Apollo) - and that seems to be due to a slightly low oil level.

 

I overfilled somewhat at the track as a result (accidental overfill...) and my OP is perfectly fine around 1g roundabouts, but the OT has leapt up by 5-10 deg C as you would expect due to the thrashing it's now getting.

 

The oil is exactly the same - but the two behavioural issues (low OP/volume leading to a temporarily noisey tappet and high volume leading to high OT) have nothing to do with the grade, manufacturer or brand... ...just poor 'maintenance'

 

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Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com

[Peter Carmichael]

Dino, shelve your obtuse belief that Caterhams are anything other than ordinary cars with ordinary metro engines for a moment.

 

Why on earth would the Caterham brew not be closely related to existing, ACEA tested Comma products? It's only oil. The packaging is a pure bit of marketing.

 

There is a difference between saying: "the appropriate spec oil for your engine is blah blah blah and we happen to have this on the shelf that meets those needs"

 

and: "we've specially commissioned this oil and it is better than anything else you might put in the car. In fact, if you want to avoid problems when using on track you had better use our oil."

 

The second statement is dodgy practice.

 

Now pick up that belief of yours from the shelf and dust it down

 

I can posit certain theorems as to why a particular spec might suit the Seven engine installation well. I posit that oil choice hinges on the problems that the shallow wet sump gives. The wet sump causes massive windage and uncontrolled high oil temperatures. What you want in such circumstances is an oil with a high viscosity index - least variation in viscosity over a range of temperatures and a 5W50 spec does score quite well at this.

 

A 0W40 also scores very well (arguably better, although without looking into the actual numbers you can't make generalisations. A 15W50 spec scores very badly, which was incidentally Minister's previous recommendation for R500 owners.

 

In conjunction with the ACEA grading you can determine whether favourable multi-grade characteristics have been arrived at by bulking out the oil with additives that start to break down as soon as the oil is put into use, or whether the base stock of the oil has good viscosity index characteristics in its own right and therefore has less reliance on modifying additives.

 

Typical numbers for viscosity at 100 degC are:

 

SAE50 - ~16-18cSt

SAE40 - ~13-15 cSt

SAE30 - ~10-12 cSt

 

At 40 degC:

 

A 5W30 - ~66cSt

A 10W30 - ~69cSt

A 10W40 - ~97cSt

SAE40(non multigrade) - ~136

All the synthetic 5W50s with data published on the web come in at about 120cSt

AMSOil 0W40 is about 74 cSt

Mobil 1 0W40 is about 80 cSt

Mobil 1 0W30 is 56cSt

Mobil 1 5W50 is 105cSt

 

You might stick to a regime of not giving the engine death until an oil temp of 50 degC has been established, so your working assumption is that oil in the viscosity range from 60cSt to 11cSt is appropriate for a K-series engine operating in the usual speed range up to ~7500rpm. You might also try and find a 0W50 oil with ACEA A3 B3 rating or better.

 

Worth realising though that the SAE specs provide broad bracketing of viscosity characteristics and there is plenty of scope for the oils to vary within a spec. The SAE spec is also concerned with cold starting for the cold rating, so the characeristics between -35 degC starting and 40degC operating leaves plenty of scope for variation.

[SLR No.77]

Mav, you say that prior to fitting a Laminova you could achieve oil temp of 120 deg, causing a drop in pressure of 3/4 to 1 bar. With a Laminova fitted, in my experience the oil temperature can still reach 100 deg, I assume you are therefore saying that the extra 20 deg causes this substantial drop in pressure? Are you really sure that 20 degs causes such a great reduction?

BTW, the Comma oil (as supplied by yourself) is perfectly good oil, but with windage issues in the Caterham installation I for one have been better satisfied with Mobil 1. The same comments regarding reduced foaming with Mobil 1 have been made on previous threads - I am not alone.

 

Stu.

[Normans_Ghost]

I would say that any known make will be good, Mobil 1 15/40, for example. But keeping it clean and dust/grit free is important as well. I know someone who buys Mobil 1 in bulk (tankers loads) then packs it under his own label. If you saw the packing plant you would not use it even if it was free.

 

norman verona

1989 BDR 220bhp

Mem No 2166

Curmudgeon in an Elise, (and 7 and Elan)

[Petrolhead]

Getting confused

 

Is the correct grade 5/50?

 

Its just that my build manual says 10/50

 

Now with SL No 148

[Peter Carmichael]

 

 

Edited by - Peter Carmichael on 20 Jun 2004 23:40:21

[YellowSeven]

Peter,

 

What oil & viscosity would you recommend for the K-series? Use prodomanitly for track & racing.

 

The way I look at it CC brand up an oil and insist you use it or your engine will go pop, even thought this product has only been available for short spell while Caterhams have been racing for years!! Why is it the old oil is now rubbish and not to be used? (Out of a matter of interest what was the old oil? Syner-G?)

 

I'm also of the thinking that some people would put there hand in the fire if CC told them to and there specially developed oil probably isnt that special!!