Where to buy used Rover/MG engine in UK

[Sweden AR]

Hi!

Looking for a used k-series engine.

To be more specific the 18K4G(turbo version) engine which was sold in very small numbers here I Sweden.

Where should I start to look on the net for such engine in UK?

BR Tomas B, Vara, Sweden

[tangomikeromeo]

Having just learnt what a 18K4G/Kavachi is via google. I'd suggest Autotrader for something that used that engine but that leaves you the problem and expense of a car you don't want. 
Or maybe an MG dealer would sell you a crated engine?

[tangomikeromeo]

Out of curiosity I made some calls. 

Yes MG will still sell you a brand new one. But at £6005. 

Plus VAT!!! (That's +20% tax if you're not familiar with UK taxation)

Suddenly the 20,000 miler on Autotrader at £2,900 looks good value. And it comes with a free MG6.

[Sweden AR]

Have searched for UK car scrap yards and dismantlers but haven't found any where you can search for engines/parts by yourself, only found ones where you need to contact them via email.

Are there any websites you know of that could be useful in finding a engine?

[garybee]

There's an MG/Rover breakers in Redford that sell no end of engines and do pallet delivery. I'll try to remember to update this thread with their details tomorrow. Unless someone has already posted their details by then.

[revilla]

@garybee - Are you thinking of Willott's in Retford? If so he sells through eBay and he's got quite a few 18K4G Kavachi engines for sale at the moment: just search google.co.uk for "seller:willotts2015 18k4g"

A word of warning though (and I know I upset some people recently by posting negative comments about a company but I think it's only fair to say this):

Retford is not far from where I work (Newark). I once visited Willott's unannounced and asked to look at two engines that he had listed. The two engines were advertised on eBay with different (LOW) mileages and descriptions saying "ONLY XXXX MILES", and to emphasise the point, the mileage was clearly marked in yellow paint on the side of the engine. He was clearly very uncomfortable when I asked to see them; eventually he produced ONE engine for me, with the two different mileages painted on opposite sides! The two engines were one and the same and the mileages were just fictional. So I wouldn't necessarily believe any claims made about engines he's selling, you need to trust your own eyes and intuition and make your own decision based on what you see and not what you're told. Which is not easy from Sweden!

The other note of caution is that while I was there I asked to see some of his K Series heads and blocks. I usually prefer to buy heads and blocks separately as you get a chance to see inside. Every head I inspected was soft and indented and every block had low liners. In the end I bought nothing. I'm not saying he's particularly bad in this respect, buying used K Series is a minefield and these days a very large proportion of those for sale are heat damaged beyond repair. I wouldn't now buy a complete engine, I'd only buy heads and blocks and then only after inspection in person.

I'm really not sure to what extent the later Kavachi variants are affected. They will probably be newer and lower mileage for a start. I know the changes made to the block increased stiffness and largely eliminated the HGF issues and I've a feeling there were improvements made to the casting process in general so they may be better. Not sure.

If you wanted anything looking at on your behalf you would probably best to get a UK member who knows what he's looking for to inspect it first. If it's not too far from me (e.g. Willott's) I'd be happy to look at one or two for you. Similarly if the seller won't ship abroad I could forward it on for you. The only problem is that with a complete, assembled engine there's not really any way to inspect the quality of the metallurgy and once you've cracked it open for inspection, I think you would struggle to get Chris Willott to take it back (unless you get him to agree to sell it on the basis that you/I can carefully remove the head and return it if we're not happy). Otherwise if you buy a complete engine you are still taking a gamble on what you will find inside, whatever external inspection is done.

[revilla]

PS: He does have a number of SAIC turbo heads and blocks listed separately at the moment.

[rj]

Andrew,

Do you know how the SAIC heads differ from the Rover / Powertrain heads?

 

 

[revilla]

Regin,

Not in detail but there a few things that stand out from looking at pictures:

There's some sort of rail cast above the exhaust ports. First thought from the port on the right hand side would be an oil feed for the turbocharger, but it appears to have some sort of drilling, possible drilled through and then plugged, above each exhaust port, which makes me wonder if it's not actually additional cooling around the exhaust valves? Not seen one connected up so not sure.

There are 7 exhaust manifold studs in place of the 5 on a K Series. I'm guessing that's to better support the weight of the turbocharger, avoiding gasket damage.

 

The waterways in the head are MUCH more open. Compare with the K Turbo head below. Those little ports connecting the coolant chambers in the head at either end are tiny on a K any often almost closed off with casting flash. I usually have to cut them open when refurbishing a head. On the SAIC head they are cast or machined out a lot wider.

[Sweden AR]

Do anyone know someone who has "upgraded" from an ordinary k-series to a 18K4G engine?

[Sweden AR]

The current plan is to pay Dave Andrews a visit later this year if the corona situation allows it. Idea was to port the VVC head and buy an exhaust cam and perhaps also make a visit to https://www.kmaps.co.uk/ and let them upgrade the ECU.

18K4G will be the next "upgrade", if possible to make it work in a series 5 Caterham.

So there is a possibility to buy an engine on the trip to UK.

[revilla]

Are you wanting to retain the turbo? I think Regin (rj) has built a K Series NA engine on a 18K4G block ... Is that right Regin?

[rj]

Andrew,

Big thank you for explaining. Always top posts from you :-)

I haven't yet finished the 1.9 engine, but it's correct that it will be on a Kavachi block.

[7 wonders of the world]

The take off above No4 exhaust port looks like it might be EGR related, certainly sooty so my initial thoughts of turbo water feed are not correct.

The small core plugs in this rail could be for O2 injection in certain markets, again for emissions

ISTR the oil feed is direct from the filter housing cant remember where the oil return pipe enters the block though, can't be far away !

[garybee]

Andrew - yes that's exactly who I was thinking of  , fairly nearby for me also.  

Interesting to read your experience of them.  I don't like that people are jumped on for anything that isn't praise.  It does require people to be reasonable in what they post of course.  I've never seen anything other than that in what you've posted on here.

[rj]

The oil return is in the bearing ladder. It's been a while since I've seen it, but I am fairly certain I got it with a blind plug for the return.

 

[Sweden AR]

Yes, I'm going to keep the turbo to get some more power :-)

[SM25T]

Backwards through the hedge just a little faster !

[rj]

Unless you have a very clever ECU turbo & Caterham is not a vise combination - like Ian says: Backwards through the hedge faster

 

 

[rj]

Unless you have a very clever ECU turbo & Caterham is not a vise combination - like Ian says: Backwards through the hedge faster

 

 

[garybee]

Common sense would agree with the people saying "don't" but common sense isn't the only route through life.  If that were the case 200BHP motorbikes wouldn't exist, skydiving wouldn't be a pastime and we'd all look out onto our driveways at our beige VW Golfs.

Do it!  And let us know what it's like please.

[7 wonders of the world]

Emerald can handle that, limiting boost in 1st & 2nd etc, depending on the level of boost and turbo employed it may well be very tractable....

So long as its nothing like the R5 Maxi Gordini I once drove you will be fine , thats one of the only cars that frightened the sh1t of me....

flat flat flat flat then...... the Scania sized turbo woke up and a No 10 shovel smacks you on the back of the head and everything gets very sideways..... 

[Mrp]

What a way to go  sounds like a plan

[Sweden AR]

Can you elaborate the drawbacks of a turbo engine with 200-250hp compared with a k-series R500 engine.

Is it "only" the low tire grip due to low weight that is a problem?

 

[revilla]

I think it's the unpredictability / non linearity of the power delivery. The tendency for the power to surge as the turbo spins up without direct input from the driver. A normally aspirated engine, even a big one like an R500, gives you what you ask for immediately. And if you want a bit more you then ask for a bit more. Put your foot down in a turbo and you get something, then it keeps building, often quite suddenly. Mid way through a bend on the limit in something light weight a big surprise present from the turbocharger could spell trouble.