Magnetic Filler BMW Differential

[ScottR400D]

Just a note to anyone who's interested, on the advice of Steve Perks of SPC, I've fitted one of these to my diff so wear and damage can possibly be picked up early.

It's a direct replacement  but with a 26mm spanner as opposed to 17mm hex. This link may need to be copied and pasted.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/vod/FetchOrderDetails?transId=2164431067018&itemId=283500049956&qu=1&gu=1&ul_noapp=true

[Jonathan Kay]

Magnetic sump plug

 

[ScottR400D]

Thanks JK.

[Nigel B]

Thanks Scott. That looks like a very prudent upgrade. What did you decide to do with your diff? Did you stick with the Titan? I was following your thread with interest.

[ScottR400D]

No Nigel, I went with an SPC LSD, see the thread somewhere below, ‘270 lsd problem’. 

 

[Nigel B]

A ha! Thanks Scott, that's very interesting! I must confess, I was under the impression that the SPC LSD was only available for the Sierra diff too.

 I'm pleased that you finally got it sorted. It sounds like it's quite an improvement!

My 420R has just passed the 10,000 mile mark & the Titan diff is definitely noisier than it was when I bought the car last year (at 4500 miles). Not much in the way of 'clunking', but there's definitely more whine & chatter when you lift off the throttle. Jacking it up and rotating the wheels in neutral, the opposite wheel does turn in the opposite direction to the wheel that's being rotated, which may suggest it isn't working as it should, although to me it still FEELS like a LSD.

I think I'll keep my eye on it for the moment, but if it gets any worse, I'll certainly be giving Steve a call!

Thanks again Scott & enjoy your new diff! 

[Geoff Brown]

My 2013 R400D has just passed 20,000 miles. The LSD has had a low key 'whine' for some time & after about 30 odd miles is 'quiet' for a Seven.  When it gets to the loud ish hello I am not well noise then it will be pulled. I have decided to change the oil every five years regardless of mileage.

As for any clonking noise it does that very occasionally.

When jacked up & in neutral only the object wheel turns but in gear both wheels turn in opposite directions?

 

[7 wonders of the world]

Linky to Steve's Tracsport LSD's

https://www.tracsport.com/lsds

Nigel if your wheels are turning in opposing directions you have lost preload through worn plates or broken bellevilles.... tis time to jack the car and lie on your back I'm afraid.

Based on the huge amounts of money Peter (ScottR400) had to throw at his Titan you will be better off in so many ways getting a Tracsport fitted  

Performance is in a different league

[ScottR400D]

Geoff, if the wheels don't rotate in the same direction, in neutral, I understand that it indicates that the preload has gone and the bellevilles are now under even more load than usual.

I'm sure a lot depends on how the car is driven. My car had done 8000 miles when the LSD catastrophically failed but that included half a dozen trackdays. On those the car was driven mainly by my son who has raced up to F3 level so he did push the 7 quite hard. 

I changed the oil every year or so.

 

 

[Doctor]

If the opposite wheel rotates the other way when the car is jacked at the rear the LSD has lost the preload. the Belleville spring has fractured - most likely due to the fact that the Titan LSD is pressing the Belleville spring completely flat when locking under load and when doing this repeatedly introducing metal fatigue and destruction of the spring. Locking with no preload becomes more erratic and leads to increased wear of plates due to slipping. All this is due to the poor design of Titan LSD that the company refuses to rectify. 

[ScottR400D]

Thanks for the more detailed explanations Doctor and 7 wonders! That's as I understand it.

i would not be at all comfortable continuing to run an LSD that had lost preload.

[Nigel B]

Oh dear, it looks like I have a winter project! 
I used to have a live axle 7 & I took the diff out of that on a number of occasions, but I have no experience with the dedion rear end. Interesting times ahead...

[Doctor]

Way easier!!! 

[ScottR400D]

Well, if you need any advice Nigel, I know someone with quite a bit of experience taking the diff out, putting it back, out, back, out...... you get the idea!

I reckon 1.5- 2 hours removing and 2.5/3 putting back including double checking, marking up etc. I do have a couple of tips that may be useful:

Jack up high enough to be able to get the diff, supported on a jack, under the chassis and de Dion. If not you’ll need two jacks when you’re putting it back. Also assists clearance when torquing up prop and diff.  

Remove the roll bar links and speedo sensor from their brackets. Then leave the bolts holding those brackets to the ears in place. Just a little bit easier than the alternative. 

Count washers at each end of A frame before removing for obvious reasons. You’ll need new plastic ‘anti rattle’ washers for rear of A frame. 

Disconnect calipers, lift up and cable tie to spring so you can pull shafts without removing disc or big nut. 

If removing prop, drain gearbox first......

In truth it’s not as hard a job as you might think.  

[Geoff Brown]

Apologies as I know Tech Talk can be the font of all knowledge but there seems to be some conjecture when it comes to establishing the health of an LSD. Apart form sampling the oil.

When in neutral my BMW LSD only turns one wheel, when in gear the wheels turn opposite ways so from previous comments on this thread the LSD is not well internally? That means the pre load has gone & the springs have either broken or worn out?

If this is the case then I have all winter to out it & sorted by R&R. It has lasted this long so I hope it will until October.

Is there some sort of maintenance schedule for this type of 'fit & not forget' LSD or is it on condition?

 

[Alan Reeves]

What am I missing. I have not had a LSD , current 210/dura/bmw diff. Previous 260 CSR/Ford diff.

Two of my friends have recently had exceedingly costly Diff repairs one a 6k BMW where I believe CC coughed up a fair amount and the other a hard used 20k version. But 20k is surely not far for a diff that sits happily in Fords for ever albeit not with a LSD - the culprit

I certainly dont miss the increased noise that seems to be associated with an LSD

I dont track but where would I find a benefit as opposed to storing up trouble down the road and needing better ear plugs.

Diffs and speedos seem to attract the highest comments for issues, remember all the installation issues when the BMW diff was first used ( inc on mine !)

Fit and Forget LSD does not seem to be available Geoff but no doubt im about to be told it is.

 

[ScottR400D]

Geoff. Yes that means the preload has gone, the LSD isn’t functioning as it should and there’s a risk of damage. 

The maintenance should be regular checks of the preload, by rotating one wheel and hoping the other goes in the other direction, and oil changing inspection. 

Thats what Phil has told me, I’m sure he’ll tell you the same. 

[ScottR400D]

Alan, I’m surprised you don’t have the LSD I thought it was standard with the 210 Duratec. 

My experience of an in operative LSD compared with a fully working one was chalk and cheese. 

The car went from spinning wheels quite easily in the lower gears to being pretty much unable to break traction. 

Certainly you can drive around it if you’re happy to but that’s not for me.  

As for my car, with the SPC diff there doesn't  seem to be any additional noise and I’m hopeful that it will last much longer than is typical. 

 

[ChrisC]

How much clearance difference is there between this magnetic plug and the original?  I remember reading about all the back plate redesigns where the DeDion tube hit the diff back plate.  

[ScottR400D]

It doesn’t stick out any further than the original Chris. It is longer on the inside which I queried with Steve but he says there’s a lot of space there, which is likely if you consider the internal layout. 

[Petethediesel]

Hello Geoff. As regards maintenance checks on the BMW/Titan LSD: Ollie ar RR said that they set up from new at around 40 ft /lbs depending on driver/ set up required. A torque check is advised, as already discussed, at service intervals: When down to 20 ft/lbs it's time for a refresh/reset. At 15 ft/lbs it's "impending doom" with a big bill.

R/R consider that the torque check should be an automatic part of routine servicing, where the Titan LSD is fitted.

[Nigel B]

Thanks for your explanation of the diff removal procedure Peter. It doesn't sound as involved as I thought it might. 

In the meantime, I've ordered a magnetic fill plug! 

[Alan Reeves]

Scott I have never driven with one so a bit in the unknown for me and clearly I need to put the boot in harder

but all these issues does not seem right to me 

cheers A

ps. I upgraded to a 210 hence no standard LSD in it from when I built it ( 175 )

[ScottR400D]

Hi Alan. In any case I have checked and CC do supply the 420S with an open diff so it does happen! When I bought my R400 I'm pretty sure the LSD was standard.

The thing is, my car is 220bhp and 175ft lbs now, so 16% increased torque from the 210 norm. It also has the 6 speed box so very high torque multiplication in the lower gears.

For about as long as I can remember but more so over the last 12 months, I've had to drive the car with regard to traction. Out of slow corners or roundabouts, and certainly on track out of slow speed corners, it would often break away and occasionally get the rear fishtailing especially if you hit a bump, slippy patch or went up on a kerb. It certainly caught one's attention, I can promise you!

Since fitting the SPC all that has gone, the car just rockets out of corners regardless of bumps. My son drove it the other week, and despite giving it full throttle out on some quiet roads, it just doesn't break traction. In a straight line you can give it full throttle in second, no wheel spin, just arrow straight down the road. We haven't been out on track yet.

The car also feels different just driving along, as I've said elsewhere. It's difficult to define but it steers 'easier' into bends as if the diff isn't encouraging understeer as much as the old one. That would be odd, because I'm convinced the old one wasn't actually functioning for a time, so I'm not at all sure about this! But certainly, it's nicer to drive now and inspires more confidence than it did.

 

[gulf 1]

What diff is fitted to a 2015 Supersport  R ? I was under the impression it was a BMW ATB is that not the case?