Bell housing with integral oil tank

[richwillbolt]

Hi guys,

I am looking for your thoughts whether it would be a good idea to use the CC bellhousing with integral oil tank with Pace dry sump set up (Neil Brown Engineering) to my K series.

I am looking to do more track work, my 1.8k has roughly 190 bhp and following a total rebuild later this year it would be an ideal time to add the dry sump system.

Many thanks in advance,

Rich

 

[TomB]

There's a bell housing tank on eBay at the moment.  

[simon_h]

I would try to get the front mounted tank that most people used with the system. The bell tank only has one inlet, pace pump has twin scavange outlets. It doesn’t hold an awful lot of oil either. You could join the pipes but I would use the front mount tank, unless you already have a bell tank then I can see the appeal 

[SLR No.77]

The Caterham belltank can be installed with the twin scavenge setup from the Pace pump, there's a second inlet on the top RH side that was used before the swirl tower was added to the tank, ie. one inlet in the original position, one at the top of the swirl tower. Works fine.

Stu.

[pgm]

If you do decide to go with the CC bell housing tank you will find that the clutch operating arm can be a little on the weak side resulting in poor clutch clearance. (They fracture and bend) We have redesigned and strengthened the arm to avoid this. It is able to be fitted retrospectively as an upgrade if required. Available on our website and currently in stock. www.pgmsussex.com

Kind regards PGM

[SLR No.77]

Definitely do this 

I've experienced the clutch pedal getting that mushy feeling and it's not a pleasant journey home knowing the engine will need to come out to replace the fatigued clutch arm.

Stu.

[TomB]

Ditto - I drove from Shelsey Walsh to Manchester in 3rd gear when mine started cracking and I couldn't get a good gear change.  I think I started off in 1st, and managed to leave it in 3rd for most of the way home! I bought a beefier one from PGM 

[oilyhands]

If it were me I would go with the front mounted tank purely because it has much more capacity than the bellhousing tank which can be marginal at times.

Oily

[Wrightpayne]

The R500K had a mini apollo tank to increase capacity.

[SLR No.77]

The mini Apollo will increase capacity and allow some de-aeration of the oil which helps reduce frothing, but it will not actually increase the "effective" capacity related to oil starvation. To do this it needs more oil between the scavenge and the pressure pump which is what is achieved with a bigger tank at the front.

Stu.

[richwillbolt]

Many thanks for your help guys, I did purchase the bellhousing mentioned on eBay. I will purchase the PGM upgrade. My engine was originally a Supersport, so came with an Apollo tank, should I keep this as extra insurance?

The comments about being 'marginal on the oil capacity', please educate me on this one, as my understanding is good, but not great.

Thanks again all,

Rich

[SLR No.77]

Here goes but anyone else please correct me or add to ......

 

Both the gold scavenge pump and belltank capacity are marginal but probably most noticeable on higher powered (and higher revving) cars.

A dry sump works by sucking oil out of the sump and dumping it into a tank, the tank then feeds the oil system via a pressure pump, in the Caterham K-Series this is the standard o/e Rover pump. This is different to a wet sump setup where the pressure pump itself sucks out the oil from the sump and feeds the galleries. Fundamentally the tank creates a divide/buffer between the sump and the galleries so that the galleries can always get a guaranteed feed of good oil.

The tanks are usually designed to be much taller than they are wide to ensure the outlet at the bottom is not exposed during high cornering or braking forces, they're also of a capacity that is big enough to prevent the level dropping too low or the outlet being exposed. During braking and cornering not only is oil forced against the walls of the tank, but the same happens within the engine so for periods the oil flow back to the sump reduces, during which time there's little or no oil to scavenge from the sump and the tank contents will start to reduce ... and eventually empty! In the case of the Caterham belltank it's not really tall enough or big enough capacity, but it'll just manage. It's a very fine line though between running enough oil to prevent starvation at the pressure pump and running too much such that it blows out into a catch tank.

Likewise, the standard gold scavenge pump is marginal on it's ability to empty the sump continuously, although it's difficult to know whether the shortcoming is in the pump capacity or the single outlet at the rear of the sump. Particularly under heavy braking the oil returning to the sump is pushed to the front and the same is happening in the tank.

If you run the Pace pump it's a twin scavenge so you help with the sump emptying which in turn will keep more in the belltank, that should be a good improvement. The Pace pump also replaces the o/e pressure pump but there's no real advantage. 

I know one owner who runs a Pace twin scavenge with a Caterham belltank and it works well. Also, if you haven't got it with the tank already make sure you add the Caterham swirl tower to the top, this helps with capacity because it doesn't so readily blow out oil into the catch tank and reduces the bubbles in the oil, bearings don't like froth. It'll also have the second connection for the Pace pump.

Stu.

[TomB]

Re tower, this: surprise surprise its out of stock.  

https://caterhamparts.co.uk/dry-sump/1191-swirl-tower-rover-dry-sump.html

[TomB]

PS - have you seen the price of the gold pump!! Maybe its not just anodised gold!! How does this compare with the Pace pump?  

https://caterhamparts.co.uk/dry-sump/3117-scavenge-oil-pump-dry-sump-rover.html

Also, with the Pace system, does it have a bespoke sump pan or use the expensive Caterham one?  

[SLR No.77]

Tom, the Pace system uses a bespoke Pace twin outlet sump.

Stu.

[TomB]

So, in an unfortunate future cats eye sump interaction, a Pace sump could be fitted if the CC offering was no longer available / ridiculously expensive. Presumably you'd have to either get a Pace pump too, or blank off a port on the sump.   Nice to know there are probably options.  

[Andrew Gilbert]

also something to bear in mind, with a bell housing tank, your feet and legs can get hot due to the heat transfer, I say can get hot because my current one doesn't give me this issue where as my previous one did, but I have a c20xe engine in mine.

[richwillbolt]

Brilliant. Thanks for all your comments, especially Stu. The belltank with the Pace set-up is what I wanted to go with.

It's also good to hear that this configuration works well.

Lastly, the Pace/CC system requires 4.5 litres of oil, just like the standard engine. I was just a little confused as to why the belltank would be marginal with a twins avenge system! ?

Thanks again,

Rich

[SLR No.77]

Your 4.5L is spread across the tank, engine, galleries, sump etc. When you're driving hard (e.g. on track) more oil is held within the engine particularly (in the case of the K) in the cylinder head, obviously this reduces what is then in the tank which is where it needs to be to feed the bearings. If you increase the tank capacity all the extra capacity is oil available for the bearings. If it's not big enough there'll be occasions when the pressure pump draws air which isn't what you want and certainly not what the bearings want. The Caterham belltank is generally recognised to be marginal capacity.

Twin scavenge will better keep oil out of the sump which will help a little.

Stu.

[anthonym]

@pgm order placed.

My worst ever 7 experience was CRA total failure on tour (after a 6k rebuild at Minister). 
 

with thanks to Pete Freeland (r.i.p.) who gave me the final push-start-in-gear near Briancon. 
 

anthony - apologies if I should have followed the new regime of "email sent", not yet understood what that is about. I am perplexed why we are sending messages saying we are sending messages. I've been away so have missed stuff. 

[Wrightpayne]

I checked out the Pace (now Neil Brown engineering) and the K series kit is £1500 ish. 
 

I couldnt find a price for the sump on its own - anyone know per chance?

 

Regards

Ian

[Geoff Brown]

I stand corrected but in the past a batch of bell housing tanks were found to be porous?

[Wrightpayne]

Geoff

I'd read that about early 6 speed cases being porous. If cast in the same place / time then very likely.

Regards

Ian

[SLR No.77]

The K-Series belltank has been around a long time though and certainly used in the mid-'90s on 1400cc units and without the swirl tower (kit) that came later. Any porous ones must have been very early tanks, my '99 tank is fine and I've not heard of any porous ones since.

Stu.