Fuel Supply Issues - North West K Series Specialist

[RyCliff]

Morning All,

I'm still having the same inconsistent fuel supply issue. 2 days ago the car drove fine along country and dual carriageway roads. Yesterday, after a brief motorway drive at 60mph (8 miles), I put my foot down on a country road and let the car rev out to around 6500rpm. As soon as I changed up I lost power. The engine then sat at a rough idle as I slowly cruised to a halt, occasionally picking up my accelerator position (full throttle, not comfortable!). Once I was at a standstill the engine was still idling roughly at around 700rpm with a knocking noise from around the exhaust side.

Following my last plea for help I checked the fuel breathers and all seem clear. Opened the fuel cap this time to see if that corrected the issue whilst the engine was running, to no avail (though my problems did give the local kids a good laugh).

So I'm now looking at taking it into anyone around the North West that would be recommended to look at a K-Series. With the way the car is I'm reluctant to travel too far, it has happened to me on the motorway before and the hard shoulder is definitely not a safe place in a Caterham.

Any recommendations or advice gratefully accepted.

Thanks

Ryan

[paul richards]

Phoenix Motorsport in Accrington. Very familiar with K series engines. Alternatively you could try Track v Road in Clitheroe. TVR and Lotus specialists. Familiar with K series in Elises. 

[RyCliff]

Thanks Paul, will get in touch with them to see availability. Would be interested if there are any slightly further south, I'm on the border between Manchester and Cheshire.

[RyCliff]

Just remembered the cooling fan seems to be kicking in whilst the before the engine is up to temperature. Not sure if this could be significant. Both caterham and stack gauges were reading well below, around 40-60 degrees.

[TomB]

Can Oakmere help?

[RyCliff]

Had it serviced at Oakmere earlier, not sure how expensive it would be to get them into finding the solution. My guess would be very but I could be wrong.

[TomB]

Not any specialists I can think of a bit further south. Can any of the Cheshire area members help with a suggestion or actually looking over the car with you? 

Id email Nick Chan or Richard Price, they are in Newcastle and pretty handy with 7s. Without wishing to volunteer them, I'm sure they could help.

I'm wondering if you've got an intermittent fuel pump problem.  Have you read the recent thread on the throttle position sensor another owner has had with their 1.4? Doesn't sound exactly like your symptoms, but could be something to look at.

Unfortunately there isn't a quick answer, you've just got to work through the symptoms.

PS - I've just remembered that there is a garage in Congleton called Mikeanics who mapped my Emerald ECU. He might be able to plug your ECU into a computer to look if there is a sensor problem and help with the problem. He does lots of rally and sporty cars so could be worth a phone call. Rates for ECU mapping didn't seem excessive. 

[RyCliff]

Had a brief look at the TPS thread at the weekend, some symptoms sound similar but the way the car is responding doesn't seem to fit exactly to that being the problem. Having said that the hunting at idle could well be fixed by replacing the, which I might have a go at in time.

Nick and Richard are great and have offered assistance on the problem earlier, after a quick email conversation with them the issue didn't come about as being obvious. Unfortunately most of my tools have been moved into storage following our house move as well so I'm thinking it's going to have to go in somewhere.

I spoke to Phoenix Motorsport yesterday, the guy there seemed to know his stuff and also said it sounded like a fuel pump issue which he said he had seen a number of on K-Series with low mileages. Hoping to get it up there on Saturday when the roads are a little quieter and I can spend a bit more time chatting rather than dumping the car quickly.

Don't know if you've had any experience with Phoenix Tom, they'd be fairly close to you aren't they?

 

[twincamtim]

I have some experience with Phoenix and have been very happy to date. They checked over two Caterhams I was looking to buy and didn't charge me for doing it. Plus they provided some excellent advice when I had a damaged one. Nice blokes.

[TomB]

No Ive not had to use a garage fortunately for a long time.  Ive managed to deal with most of my problems at home.  If they are going to change the pump for you, its worth mentioning about the standard gasket and risk of pulling out the rivnuts holding the pump in if you tighten too much.  And also you can just replace the actual pump part of the pump assessmbly, rather than the whole lot. I bought an uprated pump from Merlin Motorsport last winter for >£50 then fitted it all to the bracket.  

If your route is likely to pass J17 M60, give me a shout for a brew, only 5 mins from the motorway junction.  I might be in the garage working on mine.  

[RyCliff]

Most of the work I've managed myself has been preservation rather than fixing, I would have had a go at this one myself had I not needed it fixed before the car goes up north for the winter.

I'm sure I'll be able to make a slight detour to meet up, gives me chance for a good nosey around your car and vice versa!

[TomB]

How did you get on at the weekend?  Did you head up to Pheonix?  

[RyCliff]

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread of mine.

I've just managed to get the car running again with a new battery and refurbished alternator (bearings, brushes and voltage regulator all changed).

Started the car today and - a little reluctantly - it's running. E!ven managed to drive it around 500 yards

Sadly it seems to need coaxing into keeping the engine alive though, in neutral or with clutch in the car seems to want to cut out unless I lightly keep the throttle pressed. I've tried resetting the throttle position sensor using the usual set ignition and press/depress throttle 5 times to no avail.

This may be an obvious problem, total novice on cars though so any help appreciated.

Also since the battery change and alternator refurb I'm getting the warning light in the centre of the dash as in the image below. Also on there the Stack Gauge needle has snapped and the rev counter now sits at an obscure value which is no relation to what the engine is doing 

/sites/default/files/images/users/32821/medium_DSC_0072%5B149%5D.JPG

Without tow bar or trailer I'm pretty stuffed for getting it to anyone with a bit more knowledge then me (breakdown cover doesn't allow for home start).

Thanks all

[Jonathan Kay]

Also since the battery change and alternator refurb I'm getting the warning light in the centre of the dash as in the image below.

On with ignition and never extinguishes, or something ele?

... and the rev counter now sits at an obscure value which is no relation to what the engine is doing

Other instruments/ Stack readings working normally?

Check the fuse to the instruments.

Do you have a multimeter?

Jonathan

[RyCliff]

All other instruments working fine, can't say for certain about all the measurements on the stack as didn't check all but the speedo still operated fine. The alternator is a Brise unit, connected by spade terminals as this is how the wires were previously. Could they be shorting between L and IG connection to cause the light on? Light comes on and stays on.

 

 

Multimeter is at the top of the Christmas list after recent work, not sure how I've lasted without one for so long!

[Jonathan Kay]

The alternator is a Brise unit, connected by spade terminals as this is how the wires were previously. Could they be shorting between L and IG connection to cause the light on?

If Christmas came early I'd start (!) by checking the voltage across the battery at 3,000 rpm to be sure that it's charging OK.

Then, as you suggest, checking all the wiring and connections at the alternator.

Jonathan

[RyCliff]

Cheers Jonathan,

I've had a mechanic with multimeter hel me do the alternator bits, we checked it with the old battery and it was supplying a healthy voltage after the refurbishment. One slight issue we had when refurbishing was Brise sent a regulator with a type 4 socket whereas the old unit had a type 1 (as shown here http://www.brise.co.uk/images/D/image-02.jpg) which led to using the smallest spades I've ever seen.

Unfortunately I know that the multimeter has now arrived at my parents for Christmas which is up in the lakes, so I won't be getting that too much before santa comes.

I'm not sure if this would be leading to the engine cutting out though, looking at the wiring diagrams for the warning light I don't see how it could even if it is shorting.

I guess the problem is so open that I really need to get it into someone with a bit more knowledge and ability than myself.

[Jonathan Kay]

Brise terminal identification and functions.

I think you could get a bit further without the multimeter:

1. What colour are the thin wires attached to each of the three terminals on the alternator?
2. Temporarily remove the wire from the L terminal and cover the free end. Does the warning light now stay off when the ignition is turned on and never illuminate? (This may sound otiose but Andrew spotted a problem of a false current route that affected both the light and the instruments. That was fixed by replacing the fuse.)

Jonathan

 

[RyCliff]

I've got a solid yellow into the L terminal and yellow and brown into IG.

Just started the car with L disconnected, the car was very reluctant to start but did in the end. Red light remained illuminated throughout though.

Could this be because the wires are in the wrong way?

Also noticed my manifold is very hot after 15 seconds of running, it is a VHPD system but should it really get too hot to touch that quickly?

Cheers, Ryan

[Jonathan Kay]

Could this be because the wires are in the wrong way?

I think so.

Brown is traditionally unswitched battery positive, but IG should be ignition-switched positive.

Alternator to warning light is traditionally Brown/Yellow but that should be on the L terminal.

What do you have on the S terminal?

Can you see where the yellow wire goes or connects to... could it be a local extension for the new alternator?

Have you got all of the following:

1. The factory wiring diagram for your car? If not send me a Private Mail with your email address.
2. What should go where from the Brise article in post #18? Appended below.
3. The "standard" wiring colours? It's never guaranteed that these are right for any particular vehicle.

Jonathan

How do I connect the alternator into my  vehicles electrical system?

Brise Alternators can generally be supplied with what we term as 'one wire'  or 'three wire' connection systems. The one wire regulator that is available for certain DENSO type alternators only requires a connection to the main Battery output post with no connections to the voltage regulator. This type does not have the option of a warning light control terminal.  

Three wire systems require the same battery output post to be connected but also need an ignition switched 12v power supply to the 'IG' terminal of the regulator.  The 'IG' terminal provides the power for the regulator to operate, and needs to be switched on and off with the ignition to avoid power drain when the engine is not running.  

If the regulator connector includes an 'S' battery voltage sense terminal, it must be connected to a +12v supply.  It is not necessary for this to be switched as it is only a sensing wire and does not consume any current.  It is advisable for the connection to the 'S' terminal to be made as directly to the battery post as possible to eliminate voltage drop in cables however the alternator will work properly even if the 'IG' and 'S' terminals are linked together.

The 'L' terminal controls the dashboard warning light and in most cases is an optional connection.  This terminal is effectively the same as battery negative or earth when the alternator is not charging, hence connecting your warning light wire to it will illuminate the bulb. When the alternator is charging, this terminal becomes the same as battery positive which will extinguish the warning light bulb.

The Alternator is earthed through it's body therefore it is important to check that the mounting bracket gives a good earth and there is no paint or aluminium anodising treatment that could degrade the connection.

...

http://www.brise.co.uk/images/D/image-02.jpg

[RyCliff]

Tried reversing the 2 wires plugged in but still the warning light. When I went to start it with them reversed the car just didn't quite fire after one attempt, switched them back and still a warning light and now the battery seems to not have quite enough juice to start the car. Can't fully understand what's going on as the car jump starts OK ish but struggles on its own even with a brand new battery.

I have a master battery cut off so don't think the battery is being drained when off.

As the regulator before on my alternator was a type 1 connection but Brise sent me a replacement with type 4 I don't have anything on the S terminal (as there wasn't a third connection previously). Although having read the above could I not short this to the IG terminal without causing a problem?

I haven't managed to trace the yellow wire, the only thing I can say is that it seems a bit thicker than the other.

Am I right in thinking if I check the colour of the wire on the back of the dash going into the warning light it should match the wire colour going into the L terminal?

[TomB]

Ive  a spare EU2 K series alternator that would be OEM for your engine. Your welcome to borrow it for testing purposes.  

[Jonathan Kay]

I don't have anything on the S terminal... Although having read the above could I not short this to the IG terminal without causing a problem?

Yes. But IG needs to be connected to an ignition-switched battery positive. 

Am I right in thinking if I check the colour of the wire on the back of the dash going into the warning light it should match the wire colour going into the L terminal?

Probably. Should be Brown/Yellow, and that is unlikely to be used for anything else. But it's not a reliable rule for more common colours.

But I think we have to work out what that yellow wire is.

Jonathan

 

[Ivaan]

Have you cleaned out the tank and fuel lines?

I had a snot of clear silicone sealant in my tank. It would go through the tank pick up tube, but stop at the entrance to the fuel filter. The car would start and run fine, until you put your right foot down, then it'd loose power and fart around. Slow down to stop, and it would run freely again. Changing the fuel filter made no difference.  If you took off the fuel hose at the engine end there'd be plenty of fuel there.

Took a lot of head scratching to finally sort.

Clive.

[RyCliff]

Cheers for tip Clive, I haven't had chance to get the fuel tank open yet nor have I taken any of the lines off to check for a blockage.

I'm without a garage at the moment so doing any work on the car in the evening is basically impossible with the dark evenings and no lighting. When I start at it again on Saturday I'll try and trace through this yellow wire from the IG to see if this is causing the warning light to come on.

When I first removed the wires the insulation around the spades was well positioned so I'd now be surprised if these were shorting out at the terminals.

Thanks for the offer Tom - the wiring was fine for the Brise unit before I refurbished it so not sure it would be suitable for the OEM alternator. I may end up taking the alternator out and swapping the voltage regulator to one with the same pin layout as my old one.