R400 D - Electrical problem.. i think

[colindavies56]

remove the map and put that in the airing cupboard aswell,nothing to lose.

[Tomiam]

I can but the timethis problem started initially was about 2 months ago.

Guess it won't hurt.

[Tomiam]

Ordered Lambda.  Shouldve been here yesterday / today.

Chased company. Told me the batch of lambda sensors they were given were defective and that it should leave them today.  Will be with me in 3 - 4 days and they dont have express delivery to get it to me quicker.
I will update once Ive got my hands on one.

[Tomiam]

Cancelled order with cheap online company.

Phoned a friend of a friends garage.  Lambda sensor on its way and here within an hour. :)

Sooooooo... its looking like tonight is the night when its fixed / head scratching time. :D

[John Vine]

I can but the timethis problem started initially was about 2 months ago.

Ah, I didn't realise that.  I thought there was a close link between the rain and your current problem.

Many thanks for your very kind offer of a loan of your SBD cable.  I've just bought a second-hand laptop on which to run Easimap, and I'm about to order the cable, so by the time you fix your problem, I may well have my own diag kit!

JV

[Tomiam]

Ok... cue drum roll... I have the new Lambda sensor.

Went into the garage.
Tried to plug it in but the connection was bloody tight.
Checked pins & after a few mins of wiggling back n forth it went in.   Looking good!
Turned on laptop.  Fired up easimap.  Connected to car.   All systems looking good! Lambda is at 0.86
Fired her up.  Started ok and I then sat in the car watching the coolant temp rise on easimap.
"Bad AFR Reading" was showing for the lambda but thats ok because coolant isnt up past 60 deg yet.
Lambda still shows 0.86.. in fact its not moved at all since I started her up.

Coolant 58.... 59..... 60.... (still Bad AFR Reading)... 61.... 62.... (still Bad AFR Reading).

Oh for... (insert word)!!!!
So I stopped the engine. Sat there looking at the steering wheel, thinking.. really?
Got out, checked the connector and one of the pins looked a little loose on the back.
A small push and it went in.  It must have been pushed out by my wiggling the connector about to get it in!

Started up again and YES!!!!!   Lambda sensor is fluctuating between 0.7 and 1.2 back n forth every second or so!!!   Engine sounds much better and didn't stall in the 5 mins I left her running.
I also held my foot down on the accelerator, keeping the throttle angle constant and the RPM didn't continuously drop until the engine stalls.  It did fluctuate by about 100rpm but... well that could be the amount of sooty crap in there and tbh... Im not convinced 100rpm is that much flutuation.  Is it?

I have the original lambda sensor I purchased from Caterham, which was meant to fix this fault, about 2 months ago.   They are happy to receive it back and test it, by putting it in a car apparently, and if its duff I'll get a full refund.  Which is good... because whilst I was under the car looking for duff wiring & connections I noticed a smalll amount of leak from my near side rear brake caliper area.  So that'll go towards that.

I'd like to say "Thank you!" to everyone who has helped me in this journey but "Thank you!" doesn't quite seem enough and I don't know how else to say it.    Soo... err.. "Thank you loads?!" especially to Aerobod whose explanations were so simple and comprehensive even I understood them and also to John Vine for his offer of ecu's / lambda's etc.   You wont regret getting the cable John. I was a bit overwhelmed by the amount of info to begin with but it soon starts to make sense.
I have learnt more about my car in the past couple of weeks than expected, which is good, I spent more too....which isnt so good..

On pay day Nuke the Luke will get a £50 donation as promised.

VERY much appreciate your assistance chaps!   
**disclaimer.. not wishing to tempt fate but this is assuming that the fault doesn't come back on the test drive tomorrow..  ;)

EDIT: Mods / Admins.. I dont know if you want to change the title of this thread in case it helps someone else in the future.

[Jonathan Kay]

Great news. Well done.

Now... can we work out a better test routine for sensors than swopping them in and out?

Jonathan

[John Vine]

Excellent news!  You say you've learnt a lot during this exercise, but so have I!  I now feel confident to run (and interpret) Easimap on my own R400D.  I think Mr Aerobod deserves a special recognition award.  There was talk a while ago about a Club award for contributions above and beyond the normal.  IMO, Mr A is a worthy contender.

JV

[aerobod - near CYYC]

Glad it is all working well now!

Your fluctuating idle is normal when the throttle site is in the 1 range as opposed to 0. I found Caterham had done the same thing on my plenum R400D, perhaps to allow for manufacturing tolerances. When I replaced my ECU with an unlocked one, I reset the throttle limits to make sure I was at 0.0 to 0.2 at idle. When at site 1 the map is trying to add fuel, but as you don't have enough air with the throttle closed, it will go rich, the lambda sensor will then detect the rich mixture and the ECU will then trim the fuel down again. The slight oscillation tends to be in tune with the lambda cycling. Adjusting the rotation of the TPS or adjusting the throttle stop may eliminate this, but make sure at full throttle you still get well into TPS site 14.

[Jim 123]

I echo John's comments completely. I think many of us have learned a great deal from your experience (and dogged perseverance!)

[Tomiam]

Couldnt wait... just went for a test drive / slide (its a bit wet out) and all went well. :)
Performed perfectly. No hesitation, no odd feelings, just a precise throttle response.
Whizz pops bangs coming from the exhaust, but these are the good ones :)
I feel a need to book a track day!

I'd definately like to add my vote to Aerobod & Johns comments  :)

Coming soon... learning about brake calipers & (maybe) playing with the TPS / throttle stop.

 

[Smiffy69]

Great news Tomiam for finding the problem   

I am very interested to see that you had a broken sensor.  I changed mine but had exactly the same problem before and after so discounted the sensor.

Can I ask a favour if you get time ?  Can you log the following inputs Coolant temp, Lambda, engine speed, and warm up timer.  Under the following conditions ..... engine is up to temp i.e. coolant above 70C.  switch off and leave to cool down for 15 mins.  Then start (no throttle input) and leave running for 2 mins.  

The reason I ask is to see if your engines behaves the same as mine as mine will stall out once the warm up timer expires due to a low Lambda reading and the fuel then getting leaned out.

I can send you my  easimap data if you want to have a look at mine but as stated previously i was convinced I had a warm up timer issue but if you had a second dodgy Lambda I might have the same. Therefore a comparison would be good.

cheers

Ian

[Tomiam]

Not a problem at all.  I will get it done tomorrow night (Friday) and upload logs for you. Im working tonight.
Only issue I have is that mine rarely starts without any throttle input.    I have to push button, blip it a couple of times and then it'll start.

The main indicator for me on easimap, looking at the live data panels, was that the lambda reading started off at <1.0 but then climbed past 1.0 and never once came back down.
The new lambda flutuates every 1 - 1.5 seconds over / below 1.0  ie:  0.86, then 1.1 etc.  
Also, taking the exhaust apart to check it for leaks and seal everything, the inside of the exhaust stunk of fuel and the spark plugs were sooty black.

Running a multi-meter across the signal wires on the lambda gave no different reading between the duff lambda and the good one.  I think it was 3.9ohms in both cases.

 

 

 

 

[Smiffy69]

Thanks much appreciated ................. I don't think small throttle input to start will be a problem and not overly effect the result (mine BTW will start without throttle) 

Symptoms are that mine will start to read normally but only after about 50secs once it warms up.  It starts off steady reading about .86 then drops down to .45 for about 10 secs then it starts to  read +- 1 after about 50secs.  

Hence why I think its temp related as its very repeatable. 

I think the warm up timer is too low to allow the sensor to heat up enough to start to read properly before it uses the sensor .....  once it warms up all seems to be OK.

[Tomiam]

Got logs n stuff :)

Logging from a cold engine to 72degC.   
Link1: http://www.filedropper.com/warmupto70degc
Link2: http://www.filedropper.com/warmupto70degclsn

***I then turned off the engine and left it to cool for 15 mins.

Logging from after the 15 mins cooldown where I left the enginne runnning for 2 and a bit mins,
Link1: http://www.filedropper.com/after15minscooldown 
Link2: http://www.filedropper.com/after15minscooldownlsn

I thought about writing down my impressions of the lambda sensor's reading as time went on, but then figured its all in the logging and perhaps a video might be of more use to you.
Video of easimap showing the screen for the 2 and a bit mins of running after cooldown. 
Link: 

There are some videos on my youtube channel of me driving my r400 on my first few track days.. please dont critique the driving too much lol! :D

In all cases, the car was started with no throttle input and was left to idle in a stationary position.
I hope this gives enough information to help compare to yours?  If you need anything else, dont be afraid to ask :)
 

[Smiffy69]

Many thanks Tomiam - PM sent :-)

 

[Tomiam]

Experiement to be re-done with an adjustment. (bits copy n pasted from PM)
(Keeping it in this thread in case it helps someone in future.)

Previous Experiment:-
Engine was started up and left to get to 72 degC
It was then left to cool for 15 mins.
Engine coolant cooled beyond the 60 deg C point.
So when I started up after 15 mins the cold start map (a coolant less than 60C ) ran and when that expired the Lambda is up to temp so the warm up timer is redundant (as Smiffy69 understands it).  

New experiment:-
Have the engine up to temp.  
Then let it cool down to the point where the coolant temp reads between 65C & 70C.
This way the engine will run its warm start map and then start to read the Lambda once the Warm up timer expires.
Smiffy69's then leans out the mix as the Lambda is low reading .6 / .7 (not yet in the right temp range) and will stall - if mine does the same then we have the same feature !! (and CC now recommend that the arm up timer is 60secs) or mine is fine and Smiffy69 has another problem to try and fix.

Car is currently on stands whilst I learn how to replace the left rear brake caliper (have slight leak),
I will update this thread within a couple of days.
 

[John Vine]

whilst I learn how to replace the left rear brake caliper

Presumably you have a copy of the Assembly Guide?

 

Interesting experiment!  I look forward to the findings.

JV

[Jonathan Kay]

... and have found the Alcester Racing 7s page? That doesn't include changing callipers but is otherwise very useful.

If you are removing calliipers I'd suggest you consider changing to flexible rear hoses. (The rigid hoses don't feel right to me, although I'm not aware of fatigue in practice. The factory have confirmed that the flexible hoses are OK for road use.)

Jonathan

[Tomiam]

Thanks folks!
I was told that I had a leaking caliper, by the garage who attempted to fix the above fault...
After taking the wheel off, removing the caliper and looking for any sign of a leak... I cant find any.
My dad even popped around to help and whilst one of us sat in the car, the other pressed hard on the brakes and held them down for 2 mins or so.  Nothing...  nothing at all.  Apparently the garage had done this and it leaked for them.
I did however see that the pads on the car are in a terrible state.  Probably the original ones from the previous owner.  So those need replacing.
Flexible hoses will be considered for the future for sure, but at the moment Id just like to get her in a decent shape.

Yet there is a lot of oil on the drop link (I think thats the right term) and when left over night I found a small pool of fluid / oil on the floor.

It turns out its coming from the (and please excuse me if I get the names wrong.. this is all a massive learning experience)  CV joint boot.   Its a big rubber seal / sleeve.
Thats a photo taken of it. Looking towards the front of the car on the left hand side.  ie: Its the back left hub in that photo.
Essentially oil is coming off the bottom of the boot from where the clip goes on.  There is evidence of a small dent on the clip (about 5mm long).

I believe I need one of these: http://caterhamparts.co.uk/product.php?id_product=2360
So I now know how to take a caliper off, remove hand brake cable, change brake pads etc. So thats good.. 
Just need to learn how to do this next bit. :)


ps: Thanks for the link to alcester racing website. Very good!  Bought myself a caliper windback tool this morning from halfrauds (£33..) who price matched screw fix for the same item (£19.99)  :)

 

[Jonathan Kay]

:-)

Have you treated yourself to a positive-pressure bleeding kit? They save a lot of time and hassle.

Jonathan

[Tomiam]

I have not... but I feel that I shall now be googling away!

edit: Nifty! :)   Any recommendations?
 

[Jonathan Kay]

I think most people use a Gunson Eezibleed.

Jonathan

PS: But I wonder how many correct the spelling on the container... :-)

[Alan Reeves]

Jk what us a positive pressure bleeding kit

[Jonathan Kay]

The traditional way of bleeding brakes is one person on the pedal and the other opening and closing the bleed screw until the air has gone, accompanied with them calling to each other.

With something like an Eezibleed you use a tyre and reservoir connected to the master cylinder to pressurise the whole system. That way it only takes one person. Following advice on BlatChat I also discovered there's a way of avoiding the traditional gush of fluid over you and the paintwork when it goes wrong.

I also use a non-return valve at the drain end, but that isn't essential.

Jonathan (And happy to lend my kit)

PS: There are negative pressure systems that suck at the bleed end and also allow you to do the job solo.