Ital axle gurus! what has too much fun at Throckmorton done to mine?!

[paul_w]

Had a great day sliding about childishly at Throckmorton yesterday, and the car didn't seem to be suffering so I carried on to my heart's content. However, on the run back as soon as I got above 40 the axle starting whistling and whining very noticeably. Didn't seem to make any difference if I was cornering or not, if that helps with diagnosis? It's an open diff and I spent much of the day sideways with the tyres spinning (something I intend to do much more of based on how enjoyable it was, so if it needs upgrading to allow this, then I'd better get it sorted!)

Can anyone suggest what I might have done and the best way to remedy? I am going to add plenty of oil and run it today to see if it quietens down but I'm guessing that's unlikely.

an LSD was high up my wish list so will it be easiest to just hand it over to someone for rebuild and mods or can you do this at home easily enough?

Cheers

Paul

 

[Jonathan Kay]

As you say: check the oil level and fill it up. I'd look at the rear wheel bearings, discs and prop shaft UJs as well while it's up.

Jonathan

[virden]

Over oil- fill via the breather and check for bearing play at the wheels. 

[Nick Chan]

Sounds like you have suffered oil surge in the diff and the CWP has run dry.  If that's the case, nothing for it but to replace the CWP which is easy if you are looking to have it upgraded to an LSD.  I think the mod is to fit some baffles to prevent the oil surge but not sure how/who does it.  Steve Perks of SPC could easily advise on the upgrade as can a few other reputable places.

Nick

[Ivaan]

Looking through the reciepts for the axle build for the R1 it seems that Mc Millan Motorsport replaced a cracked halfshaft, then shimmed and fitted new bearings.

Rimmer Bros provided the Crown Wheel and pinion, and Road and Race fitted a Quaiffe AP LSD, internal seals and set the diff up.

It survived all the stick I gave it on Saturday 

Clive

 

 

[paul_w]

Thanks for all the advice chaps, should have done a bit more research *before* thrashing the treads off it, but you live and learn, eh?

I overfilled it through the breather today and took it out and the noise was back as soon as it got warm, so will definitely need sorting. Demon Tweeks seem to have a sale on Quaife units at the moment so maybe the timing isn't so bad, as long as the other half doesn't find out (the conversation where I revealed I'd bought a 7 without telling her went surprisingly well, but I suspect one where I tell her I've broken it already probably won't...)

I have read about the Rakeway set up the Grads cars use, and although they don't publish a price I gather it's pretty expensive - is this likely to be overkill? Sounds like yours is strong enough Clive - could you give me an idea as to how much the total cost was (I am bracing myself...)

Anyone know of a specialist in North Wales who might be able to do the work? I still don't have anywhere to store it in London so it's still in my parents garage in Colwyn Bay :-/

[Ivaan]

Kendricks in Llangollen are the only Caterham service agents in North Wales. Tel: 01978 861 382.

[paul_w]

Thanks Clive, I'll give them a call to see if they know their axles from their elbows :-D

[elie boone]

The rakeway wouldn't have cured your problem, it does for the possible faillure of the halfshaft. A LSD would improve the life of the CWP and bearings but u sill need all the axle mod's. It's wel advised to use a additive to improve lubrification in case you suffer oil surge. 150bhp from a Xflow and Toyo 888 tyres has given no major problems after about 6 track days a year for the last 3 years

[paul_w]

so no Rakeway - what I'm looking for is:

- New CWP

- Quaife ATB

- baffles in axle

- Shimming

Then I need to make sure I overfill and use additive

Am I missing anything?

[Ivaan]

New seals inc the nose one where the propshaft goes in?

Not sure if Kendricks would do the work themselves, or remove the axle and send off to a specialist like Road and Race ?

[paul_w]

hmm. if they are just going to remove it and send it I might as well do that myself I suppose. I didn't get a chance to make any calls today but will try a few people tomorrow.

Do you know if yours has been baffled Clive?

[Ivaan]

Hi Paul,

Yes mine was baffled, with internal seals further up the axle arms to prevent surge.

Not seen them myself as all the work was done by Ferrino back in 2006.

Clive

[elie boone]

Paul, you got it all, just pack the half shaft bearings with grease when you put it all back together.

[paul_w]

Cheers - been on the phone to R&R and after we'd got past the fact I should have just bought a DD car (yes, I know that now...) they were really helpful and can do the repair and fit the ATB for reasonable money. However, they'd never got involved in baffling the axle and did figure I'd break it again going sideways if I didn't take steps to keep the oil on the CWP. They've suggested Redline might have done it before and are near them. They also advised against driving it down south with it whining as it is...

So more phone calls tomorrow to find out about baffling. I suspect it's the kind of thing I could do myself - haven't found pics of ital ones, but there are some Datsun pics here:

http://datsun1200.com/uploads/photos/15737.jpg

Which look like what I'm aiming for, so may end up pulling the axle in Wales and doing it myself if I can get some time up there soonish.

[MarcNS]

Mine has been making a noise for years, as soon as I did my first track day I think.

I am now putting 145bhp through it now and again and it is holding together fine.

Once it gives up, I will replace with a spare one I have in the garage and will have it made up at Jigsaw Racing near Corby. They race Triumph GT6's.

They have uprated half shafts, CW&P's (from Germany)and LSD's

 

http://www.jigsawracingservices.co.uk/gearboxes.htm

 

 

 

[Wrightpayne]

Have you looked into converting to an English ford axle? You'd need front hubs and wheels but good for high power outputs.

 

ian

[paul_w]

Thanks Marc, good to know yours hasn't got much worse since the first noises, might mean it's fine to drive mine down south to get it sorted.

I've seen other people who've converted to Ford, Ian, but as far as I can see the Ford axles are pretty pricey these days, and by the time I'm done reconditioning it and fitting the LSD, plus hubs and wheels I'll probably have spent the same kind of money, and certainly more time. I've only got 100bhp anyway, so the Ital should hold up with the mods - the English axle can have the same surge issues anyway, I think it's just stronger so less affected. If I was looking at big power in the future then I'd think about it, but I'd be more likely to buy a quicker (DD) car than get into engine swaps I think.

Corby Motorsport had an offer on the Quaife units, so I've ordered one, and then will work out how and where I'm sorting the rest out! I've looked at more pics and I'm confident I can baffle the casing myself, so I might get R&R to do the diff and fit the ATB (they were happy for me to order from somewhere else as they don't make anything on them)  and I'll sort the rest when I get time...

[Comp Scorer]

Paul,

it's not a hard job to take the diff out of the live axle if you have a basic spanner knowledge, and gives you a chance to have a look inside to see what baffling is there.

Simple steps.

• Disconnect Rear brake lines & handbrake.
• Remove brake shoes
• Remove the 4 halfshaft flange retaining bolts.
• split the flange and withdraw the half shaft assembly, might dump oil.
• repeat for opposite side
• Check bearings and halfshaft for straightness
• Disconnect propshaft from diff,by removing the 4 prop bolts. & tie up into roof of tunnel. 
• undo the outer bolts around the perfifory of the diff.
• split the diff flange, pull forwards, (careful its heavy) swing the nose upwards & lower the diff out.
• While the diff is out clean out the casing and you can check for baffling.
• installation is the reverse of the above.
• I typically put 2 litres (less what I spill) in the axle rather than the 0.9l in the manual.

if you use sticky tyres and want to get the confidence in the rear axle then the rakeway conversions is a substantial upgrade which is worth while, in 3 years I managed to bend two sets of standard half shafts doing track work. but if your just doing road work the shimmed half shafts should be fine for standard power.

 

[paul_w]

Thanks Comp - I think it's going to be easier to do it myself, seems like there's nothing unexpected. I've done axles in other cars over the years so hopefully will be fine with this one :-)

I will consider the Rakeway in time, I might even decide I want to go Grads racing if my other circuit project gets canned (which is looking likely with an impending house move!)

Just got to find the time to get back up to Wales now...

[andy couchman]

I'd talk to Kendricks too. From memory Clive Kendrick was a British Hillclimb Champion in a Caterham (not sure if it was live axle or De Dion). They will certainly be aware of the issues and, as others have said, your symptoms do sound like oil surge.

A well set up Ital axle is lighter than both a Ford axle and a De Dion (so giving straight line and cornering advantages) - but it has its faults and they include not liking 200+bhp (especially on very sticky tyres) and appearing not to like kerbs as much as a DD would. But countless race cars have run Ital axles for years without too many problems and many of us are happy to run them. A DD is not better IMHO - only different. And I get a certain bizarre satisfaction from admitting that my car has an axle from a Morris Ital!

You can throw money at them - lightening the crossbrace by drilling very big holes in it, changing the open diff to a Qualife ATB and replacing the halfshafts and even converting to disc brakes (the pukka Rakeway full kit) but those are all optional rather than necessary.

Good luck in getting it sorted and glad you enjoyed Throckmorton.

Andy

[elie boone]

Paul, the spare axle casing i have has baffles, if you pm me you e-mail i can send a pic.

[paul_w]

Thanks Elie, I've pm'd you

is it possible that the factory baffled some axles but not others? I read lots of tales like yours Andy before plumping for an LA car so figured that I shouldn't have any problem putting 100bhp through rock-hard (15 year old) 185 Michelins on a dusty airfield - maybe the reason some axles cope fine and some like mine give up when faced with their first track abuse is because some have baffles and some not?

 

[elie boone]

Picture send to you and Nigel. the axle was designed to use in a saloon that would have about 30% of cornering abilitys of what a caterham could do. I think the Ford English axle has baffles as std but as far as i know the Ital doesn't. With all the tricks it should be able to cope with abuse but it will never be like a Atlas axle. Another weak point is that at some given time they use a collapsable spacer on the CWP, the diff was not designed that way and the extra load can crush that spacer just that little bit extra resulting is too much play. So make sure the CWP has a solid spacer. Defo R&R will fit this solid spacer.

[Nigel Riches]

Thanks Elie. 

Nigel