Foam Baffle Changing (Torque Settings)

[tillson]

I've just taken the sump off my 1.6 K series and changed the foam baffle. Caterham were supposed to have changed it 3000 miles ago, but to my horror, I find that it is starting to break up. There are lumps of the stuff in the sump pan and trapped in the gauze in the oil pickup pipe. I haven't noticed any adverse effects, so I have flushed thing through and started to re-assemble.

 

Can someone please give me the torque settings for the oil pickup mounting bolts, aluminium plate fixing nuts and the sump pan bolts?

 

Many thanks

 

Tom Tillson

[Peter Carmichael]

Not very much torque at all. A click type torque wrench is liable to be innaccurate at these low torque settings, Most people use a very short levered socket and nip them up. The key to it is not to have too long a lever. For the small bolts a 3 inch lever is sufficient to give lots of feel to the job.

[Rob Board]

Tom. For info from the Haynes Manual the torque settings for the Alloy Sump Bolts on a K16 engine are 18lbft. I cannot see why this would change with a Caterham sump, as it still uses the same fixing holes.(although I stand to be corrected?) As Peter C. says, some click type torque wrenches are a little inaccurate and you could shear the bolts . So it really is preference. I use a Snap Torque wrench on my car (Three to be precise depending on the setting required) so am quite happy with their accuracy (come with calibration certificate etc). If you are using a cheap wrench, I would follow Peter's advice and only "nip" them up with a stubby spanner. As regards the oil pick up torque cant help. No idea if its the same as a standard alloy sump K16 from rover?. Again someone will know I'm sure. If you do have all the torque figures it really is preference, and faith in your tools as to your preffered method. Any doubt just nip!!. Hope this helps

Cheers Rob.

[stevefoster]

Interested in the foam break up.

I did 10000 miles in a VX wet sump with the same foam. No sign of break up at all.

What oils have been used (rumor has it that this affects things). Did the engine ever cook?

 

What does the windage plate look like? The VX is very comprehensive indeed. Protecting the

foam from the tearing forces of the crank as it whizzed around (all this is in my minds eye of course).....

 

 

My racing pics, 7 DIY, race prep. Updated often here

Photo's of the year here

Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here

 

[tillson]

Steve

 

I’ve had the car since September 91 when I bought it from Caterham. Since them, I have done just less than 3000 miles and haven’t used it since September last year. At the time of buying, Caterham said that they had serviced it. I specifically asked about the foam baffle and they stated that it had been renewed. As Caterham serviced the car, I assume they used Comma oil.

 

The windage plate ( I assume that is the bent bit of Ali. that sandwiches the foam to the bottom of the engine block.) is about 400mm x 200 mm (Guess) and is secured at four points approximately along its centreline. I suppose, thinking about it, there is nothing to stop it “flapping” at the edges, which over time could cause damage to the foam.

 

As far as cooking the engine is concerned, I’m not aware that I have. I haven’t done any track days, thrashed the arse off it, or stood in traffic for long periods.

 

On the point of oil, I’m thinking of using Halford’s Fully Synthetic, I understand that this is Comma Syner G? Any thoughts on that?

 

Anyway, I’ve re-fitted the sump, but I think I’ll take it off again after about 1000 miles and have a look what going on!

 

Best Regards

 

Tom

 

[JP]

There was athread a while ago about whether the foam was needed if you had an Appollo (or even at all). No conclusion was reached if I remember - anyone have any new thoughts now?

[Dave L.]

Just had my sump off at the weekend to helicoil sump plug hole (not me - ham-fisted previous owner or dealer). Naturally took the opportunity to change the foam "baffle" at the same time.

 

Lucky for me, no bits in the rest of the engine, but the foam at the "upper" part of the windage plate (if you see what I mean) was like crispy seaweed, falling apart at the merest touch. However, the foam on the "lower" part was fine and dandy.

 

It's my contention that the foam is being roasted in the hot air after engine switch-off, thus causing the break-up. The foam that sits on the "lower" part of the windage plate remains immersed in oil and thus isolated from the air responsible for the roasting effect.

 

I noticed that the new gasket I fitted (previous ham-fist used micron thick bead of instant gasket - who are these people ?) has a wide lip on the nearside, and the gap netween the windage plate and the gasket is virtually nothing. So I decided to cut the baffle width so it wasn't crushed between the "upper" part of the windage plate and the gasket. This also means that none of the baffle should be out of the oil when the engine is at rest.

 

So far so good. I do nearly 500 miles a week, so I'll let you know soon if there's any problems. Won't be sprinting or tracking again for a while though, so it's only road-testing.

 

I note there has been some discussion previously regarding topping up engine oil. I understand the official Caterham method is to top up to the line while the engine is running. Personally I don't do this, but doing it this way may result in enough oil to just keep the baffle submerged with the engine at rest. Perhaps that is why some people suffer the foam breakup and some don't.

 

I personally believe the baffle is there to protect the crankshaft from crashing into "solid" oil as it slops about. Hence my reticence to overfill, because then the point of the baffle is defeated. I don't believe the baffle makes any contribution to stopping oil surge other than in that sense.

 

 

 

[stevefoster]

I use Comma SynerG.

 

I suspect that 11-12 years will age a baffle and cause it to break up.

My 5 year old baffle was (is I still have it in a bag) flexible and felt just like the new one.

 

The windage plate on the VX is mild steel and pretty comprehensively covers the foam / protects it from the crack. It also means the foam acts as your course bits filter. Nothing above particle size can get through to the pick up pipe.

 

I thought about getting a stainless or ali mesh made up of the same density / consitency as the foam.

This could be taken out and cleaned. No risk of that breaking up but it would have to be cut very carefully to fit of course.

 

I went dry sump last year due to racing needs.

 

 

My racing pics, 7 DIY, race prep. Updated often here

Photo's of the year here

Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here

 

 

Edited by - stevefoster on 21 Jan 2003 13:56:01

[Peter Carmichael]

The wet sump dipstick mark is set 20mm above the Rover maximum mark. This is the consequence of running a shallow sump and the penalty is windage.

 

Wet sump Ks run with a lot of windage and this gives rise to high oil temperatures and power loss at high revs. The foam cannot possibly prevent this windage (or surge) occurring - it is a very open mesh foam. The foam provides a lot of surface area which probably helps the oil to de-aerate, but it is questionable whether this is necessary if you have an Apollo tank fitted.

[mav]

PC,

 

My dip stick does not have any additional marks on it (EU3 Engine) and when I conducted my last oil change, filled the car with approx 7.5 litres (Apollo fitted). The oil level was up to the last (nearest the top) X on the stick. This is correct for this engine. The eu2 may wll be different.

 

 

Oh. Sump bolts = 22nm (Ref. Kenricks)

[Peter Carmichael]

Martin,

 

The Caterham dipstick is not the Rover dipstick. Its markings mean that the oil level is 20mm closer to the whirling crank than with a Rover sump and dipstick. This is to avoid the principal problem of surge - which has of course very bad consequences. The secondary problems it introduces are power loss and oil temperature control problems.

 

Oil temps on wet sump Ks are much higher than dry sumped. You only get to find this out when you fit an Apollo tank which comes with an oil temp sender.

[stevefoster]

all this explains why K's see these problems.

I believe Alex W had a similar problem with his VX. He was running a somewhat hotter set up than

I did....

I never saw more than 90 deg C on the sump mounted temp sender. Even on full out lapping.

 

 

My racing pics, 7 DIY, race prep. Updated often here

Photo's of the year here

Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here

 

 

Edited by - stevefoster on 21 Jan 2003 19:34:48

[tillson]

Is it wise to use a thread locking compound on the windage plate fixing studs and oil pickup pipe bolts?

[I reply to every thread]

Definitely!

[fordy]

It is well known in the oil industry that synthetic oil formulations are more aggressive towards non-metallic components. This has been known for years and all synthetics (in fact all oils) have all now been carefully balanced so that they do not cause issues with the common seal materials.

 

However oils do not get tested with Caterham foam sump baffles during their development!

 

When I first heard of the baffle arrangement I checked with my colleague (and close pal) who was responsible for diesel lubrication systems (he did system, I do oil) and he laughed at the likely effectiveness of a piece of foam as a baffle.

 

I also know that synthetic oils are more aggressive when 'fresh' and that they settle down into the normal oil drain interval.

 

Now what worries me, given my own experiences of synthetic oil test data on non-metallics, what the hell my foam sump baffle will look like when I replace it next weekend. I have a log which came with the car that suggests the previous owner performed 3000 mile oil changes on Mobil 1, but with no evidence of having changed the foam baffle in 57K miles !!! I'd guess in almost any Caterham people who change their oil so frequently are basically chucking away almost fresh oil and that such frequent changes might not be such a good idea based on the above.

 

Food for thought.

 

Me? I'll change the baffle every 10,000 miles along with the oil&filter. I'll buy a fully synthetic but only because I can get it at a hefty discount.

 

In summary, I believe the issue with foam baffles breaking up is likely to be due to the aggresivity of fully synthetic oils towards the foam material while being aggravated by extremes of temperature.