The quest for the perfect ride

[tomperkins]

I've had my car for 6 months now and I've still not managed to get it riding as well as I want on our bumpy British B roads. I'm starting to get frustrated and wondered what people would recommend as the next steps?

 

I've tried a number of things including a full corner weight and suspension setup from DPR, along with most recently raising the steering rack to try to reduce bump steer.

 

The trouble is that the ride is the thing that restricts the speed I can travel down a bumpy road. I honestly think I'd be faster in my diesel Audi A4 across country which is ridiculous. It's harsh over bumps, even though the dampers are set fairly soft (7/24 on the front and 5/24 on the back) and the steering is deflected by bumps and ruts more than I would like.

 

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on how they've managed to get their car riding well for fast B road driving?

 

Full spec as follows:

2004 car

200bhp K series

Wide track front

AVO shocks with freestyle springs

ARB front (orange bushes I think)

No ARB rear

De dion

R888's (185/60 R13 & 205/60 R13)

Raised steering rack by 9mm

Front toe set to 1 out

Camber -2

Rake set to 20mm

Rear trailing arms set to higher position (considering lowering these)

1.75 turns lock to lock

270mm steering wheel (considering getting a 290mm)

 

Edited by - tomperkins on 14 Aug 2014 20:49:11

[Lee Fowler]

YHM.

 

Lee

[Mankee]

I don't have any experience of setting up a 7 for road use, but two things that struck me from reading your list are as follows:

 

- What spring rates are the Freestyle springs? Maybe they are too hard for bumpy road use?

- The front toe out will reduce stability but enhance turn-in. Maybe consider dialling in toe-in instead?

[Julian H]

Just checking in on your thread Tom. Very interested to see comments here.

 

Mine skips along down some roads in an alarming fashion, necessitating slowing down to keep proper control. It's going in for suspension setup, rack and ride height raising and rear ARB removal in a few weeks.

 

J

[tomperkins]

Quoting Mankee: 

I don't have any experience of setting up a 7 for road use, but two things that struck me from reading your list are as follows:

 

- What spring rates are the Freestyle springs? Maybe they are too hard for bumpy road use?

- The front toe out will reduce stability but enhance turn-in. Maybe consider dialling in toe-in instead?

Good questions.

 

I'm not sure on spring rates so will check and post here.

 

Reducing toe out has crossed my mind. Have you found this to make a difference?

 

Edited by - tomperkins on 14 Aug 2014 21:11:48

[tomperkins]

Quoting Julian H: 

Just checking in on your thread Tom. Very interested to see comments here.

 

Mine skips along down some roads in an alarming fashion, necessitating slowing down to keep proper control. It's going in for suspension setup, rack and ride height raising and rear ARB removal in a few weeks.

 

J

I'm glad it's not just me. Do let me know how you get on.

 

Edited by - tomperkins on 14 Aug 2014 21:12:01

[Bio]

Could be the spring/damper combination, ok on track but harsh for road driving.

 

John

[Lee Fowler]

Quoting Julian H: 

Just checking in on your thread Tom. Very interested to see comments here.

 

Mine skips along down some roads in an alarming fashion, necessitating slowing down to keep proper control. It's going in for suspension setup, rack and ride height raising and rear ARB removal in a few weeks.

 

J

 

Hi Julian

 

Who are you using for the flat floor?

 

Lee

[Grubbster]

For road use a small a amount of toe in makes it much nicer to drive, easy change to make as well.

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Hi Tom

What experience do you have on setting up a Seven?

[6speedmanual]

Whatever the spring rates it is very unlikely they are same or softer than standard or Superlight spec. Freestyle sold "upgrade" so therefore stiffer. Combined with adjustable dampers it's easy to get the whole thing too hard.

Colin Chapman promoted concept of firmly damped long travel soft springs (also a success factor for French performance hatches)

Lighter tyres may help too.

 

Have you driven other 7s to compare?

 

Peter

[Guest]

As has been said, Freestyle used quite stiff springs and this will be your main issue I suspect. Ideally, you need 130lb on the rear and 225/250 on the front. Check an earlier thread for Freestyle spring poundage against their colour references.

 

Can you easily bounce the back of the car? Rear should be noticeably soft.

 

Also, what tyre pressures are you running? Over inflating can make the ride very harsh.

[tomperkins]

Quoting Grubbster: 

For road use a small a amount of toe in makes it much nicer to drive, easy change to make as well.

Thanks, I may well give that a try.

[tomperkins]

Quoting Golf Juliet Tango: 

Hi Tom

What experience do you have on setting up a Seven?

Very little, bought my car in February (my first seven) and have been fiddling ever since. Why do you ask?

[tomperkins]

Quoting 6speedmanual: 

Whatever the spring rates it is very unlikely they are same or softer than standard or Superlight spec. Freestyle sold "upgrade" so therefore stiffer. Combined with adjustable dampers it's easy to get the whole thing too hard.

Colin Chapman promoted concept of firmly damped long travel soft springs (also a success factor for French performance hatches)

Lighter tyres may help too.

 

Have you driven other 7s to compare?

 

Peter

That's really interesting, thanks.

 

I haven't driven any other sevens, other than Caterhams drift cars and a classic years ago. Any volunteers?

[tomperkins]

Quoting Culminator: 

As has been said, Freestyle used quite stiff springs and this will be your main issue I suspect. Ideally, you need 130lb on the rear and 225/250 on the front. Check an earlier thread for Freestyle spring poundage against their colour references.

 

Can you easily bounce the back of the car? Rear should be noticeably soft.

 

Also, what tyre pressures are you running? Over inflating can make the ride very harsh.

 

I'll definitely look into what springs are on the car at the moment then.

 

I'm running 18psi all round.

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Tom

I ask because it is a complex process. If you know a lot about vehicle dynamics, I'm sure you will be fine.

[myothercarsa2cv]

Lower the trailing arms now and never look back. The comfort position means that the wheel that hits the bump travels up and back slightly, steering the rear. The lower position is more comfortable purely because it reduces that. Probably won't need to change much else.

[tomperkins]

Quoting myothercarsa2cv: 

Lower the trailing arms now and never look back. The comfort position means that the wheel that hits the bump travels up and back slightly, steering the rear. The lower position is more comfortable purely because it reduces that. Probably won't need to change much else.

Thanks for your thoughts, I'll definitely give that a try.

[Richard Price]

As has been said earlier, FreeStyle typically specified very stiff springs.

I've heard your compliant several times of cars that have been "upgraded", and assisted in their improvement.

Invariably, those cars have been vastly improved by replacing "upgraded springs and dampers" with standard springs and dampers.......

In my opinion, Caterham really knew what they were doing when they specified 150lbs/in springs on the front with progressive springs on the back, all with suitably valved Bilsteins.......

My own car has been quite successful on sprints, and, in particular, hillclimbs. I believe some of this performance is achieved because the car is quite softly sprung, not despite the soft springs. The car is particularly stable on quite undulating surfaces, which inspires the confidence to push a little harder.

 

If you car has stiff springs, and you AVO's are "tired" then you may have the recipe for a very bouncy, uncontrolled ride.....

 

[Wrightpayne]

I have a 1.6 K supersport with std bilsteins. I think it handles fine. Friend with an r500 with Ohlins dampers has driven it around Cadwell and says its sweet. I have adj platforms on the front only not flat floored or anything.

 

Yes you could argue it need flat flooring and more could be eeked out but it is fine for my needs.

 

 

2 new rear dampers on eBay at the moment. As suggested might be good to buy / borrow a std set to try.

 

Ian

[Julian H]

Quoting Lee Fowler: 

Quoting Julian H: 

Just checking in on your thread Tom. Very interested to see comments here.

 

Mine skips along down some roads in an alarming fashion, necessitating slowing down to keep proper control. It's going in for suspension setup, rack and ride height raising and rear ARB removal in a few weeks.

 

J

 

Hi Julian

 

Who are you using for the flat floor?

 

Lee

 

Hi Lee

 

I am going to Richard at Automotive Engineering for my suspension set up. Not sure I (or he) would call it a "flat floor" set up though?

 

Julian

[nickh7]

come to Yorkshire roads are bl 🙆🏻 🙆🏻dy awful , I run Freestyle and yes its firm and I think a little to stiff on the rear (anti roll bar too) but much better than the original springs and the sump gets hit less.

 

1997 1600k Wide track Freestyle Anti-roll bar Alloy Avo Dampers 14" 888rs run at 16 PSI . I run big ground clearance at the front well above the "beer can" recommended amount

[tomperkins]

People's comments about how Freestyle chose to set the car up made me take another look at the Freestyle paperwork from when the suspension was originally 'upgraded' (dated 2009). They seem to suggest 2 (of 24) on the front and 4 (of 24) on the back.

 

Now I have always thought (not sure why) that the car should probably be harder on the front to get a pointy and responsive front end and softer on the rear for comfort. But I guess the choice of springs bring harder on the front take care of that.

 

So I set the car to 2 front and 4 rear and just drove to work and the front end does seem my more stable. The car does feel more 'wallowy' but maybe that's just compared to the stiff setup I'm used to and something I may just have to adjust to. Overall an improvement though.

 

As a side note, I do have green freestyle springs (350 I think) on the front. Haven't had the wheels off the rear to check yet but will let you all know.

 

Thanks for everyone's input so far.

[tiddy1]

I would strongly suggest setting the car up with about 1 deg toe in, it does make a huge difference to the stability and tram lining. its very easy to do yourself, no need for complex measurement set ups, just undo the steering arm lock nut and twist the steering arm a few turns then re-lock.

 

if you note how many turns you do you can always put it back if you do not like it

 

Simon