Sandboy Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 is this a fit and forget item or should it be overhauled/replaced on a regular basis. reckon it's at least 10 years old and covered 30k miles. oil pressure ok but are there any tolerances/signs of wear to check for? engine's out so seems sensible to deal with now. not sure of origins of the pump, can anyne help from pic here Pic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbirdman Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Sandboy, It's almost certainly a Pace pump but from the picture it's hard to be certain. If there are no filters on the input you can bet bits of metal picked up and these will damage or even destroy the pump if larger. Well worth having a look at the rotors for signs of wear. Pace do a rebuild service if you want. Good luck Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrightpayne Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I think Stu Forshaw had one fail which destroyed his k series engine Worth an overhaul. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandboy Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 Grateful for that info Matt, little gauze filters in pickup pipes so hopefully nothing ingested into pump, will get in touch with Pace, thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECR Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Scavenge pump degeneration was almost certainly the cause of one of my engine blow ups (if not 2). I now have 2 pumps and a reconditioning regime. Pace don't charge a lot (assuming they don't have to replace parts). Recondition it is my advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skydragon Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Scavenge pump degeneration was almost certainly the cause of one of my engine blow ups were there any warning signs? what lifespan/usage do you feel is realistic? Roughly how much is a refurb? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECR Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 No warning signs that I noticed. The nature of degeneration is that it is slow and you don't notice a change. I'm planning on rebuilding every 4 years (dependent on use of course). I can't bring to mind the cost I'm afraid ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Deslandes Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Looks more like a Titan pump which was the make fitted to DS engines by Caterham. Burton do a seal kit here but Google Titan pumps and give them a call to see what they advise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul McKenzie Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Graham, It's a Titan scav pump like the one they refurbed recently off my VX....sorry to say you're probably in for a big bill . Mine just went in for a slight oil leak between the stages, and ended up costing me as much as a new pump (if they had still made them). In my experience, they will want to replace everything once they strip and examine it and it will cost you nearly £400 - I'd leave it alone as long as it's not causing any issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECR Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Ahhh, yes it was Titan not Pace for my VX pump ... (as your pic shows) A (costly) rebuild would have still been a lot cheaper than my engine rebuilds. Titan do seem to want to replace a lot. It was the same when I returned my rack for rebuild. I still advise a rebuild , certainly after the time you've had it VX dry sump pumps are no longer available so it pays to look after the one you've got Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k.russell Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 have my engine out and pump off, bugger had not budgeted for this, now paranoid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECR Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Sorry Kev .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger King Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Firstly, the scavenge pump is not responsible for your oil pressure; it merely sucks oil out of the sump and returns it to the tank. This doesn't mean that condition isn't important, but it's less immediately critical for the engine than the pressure pump (which I assume is the original internal one). If the scavenge pump stops working completely, you will rapidly run out of oil in the tank and then lose your oil pressure, but this is far more likely to happen because of a failed belt than wear and tear. Even if your scavenge pump is worn to the extent that it is 20% down on delivery rate, it is unlikely to cause any immediate problems (note that I am not recommending this, just making a comment without accepting any liability!). If the pump is leaking it would be sensible to treat it to new seals and/or strip it and reseal between the segments. Definitely fit a new belt. Beyond that you simply have to make a judgement. I am in the fortunate position of being able to strip and inspect myself, but I appreciate that most won't have this knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandboy Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 Roger, grateful for enlightenment in respect of scavange/oil pumps, thought both in one housing. Scavange has no evidence of leaks and at idle at least seems to be pumping plenty of oil back into tank so on balance probably not going to meddle with it, belt on parts list though. And if oil pressure ok then presumably don't need to worry about pressure pump either. So thanks again Roger, earlier posts had me ear marking chunk of budget but can now divert back to nice to haves. Thanks to others for input and noted titan/ burton in case of future need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger King Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 What you have there is a pump with two stages, but they are BOTH scavenge stages. If you look, you will see that both stages are fed by a separate hose from the sump, but you only have one outlet. This is because there will be internal porting in the pump so that both stages exit through just the one union - and then back to the tank (possibly via oil cooler if you have one). If an oil pump includes the pressure pump as well, it will typically (though not always) have three stages, the third of which will be the pressure stage; this pressure stage will usually incorporate an adjustable relief valve mechanism and it will be completely independent from the other two in terms of the plumbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted January 31, 2013 Leadership Team Share Posted January 31, 2013 Quoting Wrightpayne: I think Stu Forshaw had one fail which destroyed his k series engine Yes indeed my pump simply became too tired and resulted in a new crank and associated rebuild .... 2 other local owners suffered the same very soon afterwards! These were however the Titan "gold" pumps fitted to high power K-Series not the pump shown in the photograph. Roger, I think the issue with the pump on the K-Series install is that the ability to scavenge is a little too marginal compared to the demands of the pressure pump, more so at higher rpm. Add in a "flowed" pressure pump and it makes the situation worse. My pump noticeably began to struggle to keep up at sustained high rpm as would be typical when used on track, causing the level in the d/s tank (belltank in my case) to fall dangerously low leading to starvation particularly under braking. Looking back all the symptoms were there, I was just failing to really see what was happening. The final failure was the result of fragments of bearing material breaking away and then blocking the scavenge filter completely. Lesson learned .... clean the filters at oil change time and have the pump periodically rebuilt. Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECR Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Sounds like exactly what happened to me .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandboy Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 could soak up these details all day, thanks for that Roger. now engine out and sump off all makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 clean the filters at oil change time Do you mean the main oil filter, or the smaller gauze filters inside the sump? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul McKenzie Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I think a good idea with all engines, dry-sumped or not, is to have a magnetic sump plug (like the diff filler plug) somewhere in the system. On my VX, I've got the 'James Whiting' plate' on the base of the integral ds/bellhousing which allows fitment of this here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted January 31, 2013 Leadership Team Share Posted January 31, 2013 Quoting TomB: clean the filters at oil change time Do you mean the main oil filter, or the smaller gauze filters inside the sump? Tom, the gauze filter in the sump - the sump is the first place any cr4p will collect. The filter in the bottom of the belltank is post-scavenge so the oil reaching it has already gone through the scavenge filter and the pump .... and I can't remove it anyway due to the proximity to the footwell (belltank out job). Obviously the "main" oil filter would be renewed at every oil change. Paul, on my K there's no drain plug in the sump although it would make sense sometime to have it machined to take a magnetic one, in fact it would be better to have magnetic drain plugs in both the sump AND the belltank. Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted January 31, 2013 Area Representative Share Posted January 31, 2013 Stu, the latest K DS sumps have a cast boss, and a magnetic plug the same as the diff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elie boone Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 or you could glue a magnatic piece into the sump, it would collect the particals, the down side is that you can only clean it when the sump is off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger King Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Yes, the K-series scavenge pump is a special case. Not only is it a single stage unit, but it is mounted WAY too high on the engine. Ideally, a scavenge pump should sit no higher than the sump; that way, gravity will ensure the pump has oil in it before the engine even starts. Mounting high, as with the K-series pump, effectively means that the pump has to raise the oil to self-prime each time the engine is started, and has to work much harder to keep raising the oil even when running. In my opinion, it is the worst scavenge system I have ever seen on any engine and this means that it is poorly equiped to deal with any deterioration in the system. In particular, wear on the rotors/housing will drastically reduce its ability to do its job. Edited by - Roger King on 31 Jan 2013 10:15:52 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted January 31, 2013 Leadership Team Share Posted January 31, 2013 Roger, very interesting point about the height of the pump Obviously came about because Caterham used a standard Rover part being the power steering pump cradle. This of course leads to whether the system benefits from running vented rather than sealed to try to reduce "some" of the load on the scavenge pump? Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now