Strangely Posted August 16, 2002 Share Posted August 16, 2002 It's time to replace my Bilsteins. Anyone care to share their experience of the spring / damper kits from Freestyle or Nitron? I do lots of road miles, and a couple of track days a year so I'd like something biased towards the former, but capable on the latter. Both of these kits sound interesting but I'd like to avoid an expensive mistake... Cheery, Jason. http://www.strangely.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted August 16, 2002 Share Posted August 16, 2002 I have the freestyle AVOs. but due to various other matters (to be resolved - i'll explain when its sort ☹️) I can't comment properly on them. however, the adjustable anti-rollbars they sell are brilliant! HOOPY CYCLE WINGS CUCUMBER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangely Posted August 16, 2002 Author Share Posted August 16, 2002 I hope you get things sorted quickly (and only partly for selfish reasons :-)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted August 16, 2002 Share Posted August 16, 2002 me too ❗ bilbo has the same setup. well, its not the same as his '89 ( 🤔) car has a different chassis. he seems to be very happy though.. HOOPY CYCLE WINGS CUCUMBER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav Posted August 17, 2002 Share Posted August 17, 2002 Speak to PC. He is currently working a Nitron Setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted August 17, 2002 Share Posted August 17, 2002 Best to ask me about Nitrons after next weekend. If I am quicker than May, then the Nitrons must be fab. If slower, go with Freestyle. They are substantially a different product. Nitrons are more wonga and better quality, but does it make any real world difference? I guess It is all in the valving. Both Nitron and Freestyle are experimenting at the moment. Freestyle supply Martin Stewart (leading 750mc racer) and Brodie Branch (very quick fireblade sprinter). Nitron supply the racing TVRs and are successful in British GT. Nitron have also supplied the shocks for Racelines Duratec car and they have done mine. We are all learning about set up. Peter *eek*Loadsachequestubs Carmichael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangely Posted August 17, 2002 Author Share Posted August 17, 2002 Thanks to Peter and Hoopy for responding, but it sounds like I'm going to have to wait a while until I get your considered views, which is fair enough. Anyone else got something to say? I'm hoping that my current dampers don't give up completely before I can make an informed decision about their successors. Cheery, Jason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted August 18, 2002 Share Posted August 18, 2002 So Jason, On BC at last. How long will you put off changing the dampers? Steve My racing pics, 7 DIY, race prep. Updated oftenhere Hants (North) and Berkshire area club site here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangely Posted August 18, 2002 Author Share Posted August 18, 2002 Hopefully not too long, Steve. I've just managed to dig out the articles in Low Flying about springs and ARBs by Michael Gray of Juno. Still need to digest them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry.h Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 I fitted Nitrons this season. Moved from Bilsteins and more than happy with the result. Beautifully engineered and Guy Edwards at Nitrons extremely helpful. Barry Edited by - barry.h on 19 Aug 2002 08:50:50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangely Posted August 19, 2002 Author Share Posted August 19, 2002 Thanks, Barry. More questions, I 'm afraid... Did you find them better in terms of ride quality, handling, or both? Did you go for the whole dampers / spring kit? Which model? From their website it looks like they do kits based on the NTK and NTX models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 A few strange names cropping up on this thread. Guy Evans at Nitron. Gary May at Juno. Nitrons are valved to your requirements. This is a problem if you have no guidance to get you in the ballpark as you could get the valving wildly wrong. Guy does help you in this, drawing on a lot of experience. It is not a simple matter of "firmer or softer". There is a whole host of tuning around high speed and low speed damping in both bump and rebound. It also has to do with the difference between the chassis developing maximum grip and it giving the driver enough feedback to drive the car to its limits. [comments relevant to post '96 Bilsteins] The Bilsteins are valved purely for the driver controllability point of view. They have a "digressive" profile. This means that the damping force increases steeply from zero as the damper speed builds up and then reaches an elbow from where it increases only gradually. This gives you very high damping forces at low piston speeds (giving good driver feedback) and the damping at high speeds isn't bone-jarring. The Bilsteins are also valved symmetrically, giving very similar profiles in bump and rebound. It is more normal to have more damping in rebound than bump. The Bilstein rears are also valved almost exactly the same as the fronts, even though the rears act directly and the fronts have a ~1:1.63 action ratio because of the way they are mounted to the widetrack wishbones. This means that the damping at the rear of the car is very different to that at the front, which might assist with turn-in. The main fault in the Bilsteins is that they are rubber bushed - this modifies the digressive response curve, giving a lot of hysteresis and a lot of grip goes missing because of this. For my dampers, Guy valved them to be much more linear than the Bilsteins. This should in theory give more grip but less feedback, but because they are spherical jointed much less information seems to be going missing. The grip levels are noticeably higher, with the car being more reluctant to develop the sort of slip angles that were familiar (and enjoyable) before. It feels like the car is much more dependent on all other aspects of the suspension being set up correctly. This is why I am hedging with regard to the absolute performance as reflected in a double-lapper at Curborough. The car has zero time on a dry circuit with the new dampers, so I have everything to learn in the coming week. My dampers are NTRs. The experience may be slightly different for NTXs - talk to Chris Wheeler at the Seven Workshop who resells Nitrons (01992 470480). Guy can provide a kit because he gets good prices on springs, but the springs are just going to be a ballpark guess. Damper lengths should be decided on the basis of intended spring rate, so it is worth discussing spring rates with Guy from the outset. Freestyle will be able to supply a complete package including springs and anti-roll bars. The AVOs are a lot cheaper than the Nitrons, leaving more of your budget to get the springing sorted and correct. Peter *eek*Loadsachequestubs Carmichael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry.h Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 My typo - it is Guy Evans. My reply is also somewhat shorter than Peter's!! From memory it was the NTX and I had the total package which was set up to match my car and the spring rates. Handling has definitely improved and I think ride quality has as well - but it is a live axle!! Certainly the bump/rebound adjustment is very effective and I use it to set the car up differently for the road from the track. FWIW I am talking to Guy regarding my next Caterham project - which suggests satisfaction. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 more info... My dampers are still *digressive*, but a lot less so than the standard bilsteins. Linear dampers tend only to be used in F1 and are apparently very difficult to drive. Ledas came in for some criticism because their characteristics give something like exponential damping - the exact opposite of what you want and the possibility that with big bumps you get bounced off the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 Barry, Your next Caterham project...... Please tell me you're not going to go faster still!!! Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry.h Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 Alex, Hopefully, yes. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry.h Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 .............but in a different class. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry.h Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 ...............possibly the same one as you. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 I'm retiring and taking up tiddlywinks....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry.h Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 AVO or Nitron damped tiddlywinks? This is especially important given their different high speed and low speed bump and rebound characteristics. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangely Posted August 20, 2002 Author Share Posted August 20, 2002 Thanks for the responses everyone. I've decided to go for the Freestyle kit. This is for two main reasons: -- while the Nitrons sound excellent it also seems that I would need to know what I was talking about in order to be sure of getting them configured correctly for my car. I just drive it! -- a respected friend with a similar car to mine has had Avos, and is very pleased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaseb Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 all gone... Edited by - jaseb on 8 Nov 2002 19:01:30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Sewell Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 I have the standard Spax shocks (black) on my live axle. Caterham advertise the Bilsteins as being an upgrade - hence I would imagine that they would describe the Spax as being a downgrade on the Bilsteins. However, I know nohing about dampers, so cannot comment further. Low tech luddite - xflow and proud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 JaseB, Your reliable information is strenuously denied by Guy. Suggest you check your facts, preferably at source seeing as you stand a fair chance of knowing what you are talking about where I have to take quite a lot on face value. As it was explained to me, Guy moved from Spax to White Industries and Nitron are doing things more in a White Industries way than in a Spax way. Guy claims that the Nitron internals bear no resemblance to Spax products. He also claims the design ethos is pure race tech rather than production derived, a la Spax. Arnie uses Trakspax and thinks they are good (but loses to rubber bushed, Bilstein damped, under powered metro-engined cars)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 Graham, Trakspax are Spax's top of the line product, which will be significantly different to their boggo offering (spherical joints for a start). FWIW, Bilstein are the only manufacturer to sell production volumes of high pressure gas monotubes - they are way ahead of the game with their basic dampers. My move from the Bilsteins is prompted by concerns that the valving that Caterham have specified is not optimal and that there is extra grip to be had from eliminating the rubber bushed ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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