Fishy Dave Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Hi, Really hoping you can help me guys, I have a race on Sunday and the non starting is a big problem! In brief - Problems started a month ago after my race, and seems to be getting worse. Hot or cold the Seven only starts about 25% of the time on first attempt, usually requiring a bump start or rocking the car in gear, then putting in neutral and pushing the starter with fingers crossed. When the car doesn't start it either gives a click, or turns over with difficulty as if the battery is flat. However, the battery can't be flat as after givign the car a shake it will sometimes fire into life next time I push the starter button. The battery and alternator have been changed within the last year. I have read many, many old threads on here about K click and other starting problems, so tried things like touching an earth lead from the body of the starter to the battery negative. I also tried with a lead from the positive terminal of the battery to the solenoid spade connector with the same laboured result. Having removed the manifold to get to the starter a little easier I changed an 8" length of wire going to the spade connector on the solenoid as this is the piece most likely to get cooked. Same result. I then checked the voltage of the battery - 11.9v, although to be fair I had been trying to start the car many times so would expect the voltage to have dropped. Incidentally I was getting the same voltage at the solenoid. On trying the start the voltage dropped to 8 volts. Next day I bought a good automatic charger and left it to run its cycle for 15 hours. Voltage now reading 13.2 volts I was optimistic. Nope, still turning over with difficulty, but not quickly enough to fire. So, off came the starter, i took it to an auto electrician who couldn't find a fault. Just in case we swapped it for a reconditioned unit, as it seemed wise do do anyway. Well, this time it worked (yesterday)! Got back home this evening, rigged up my bullet cams ready for racing Sunday, it started first time so went for a blat. After 15 mintues I stopped the car to review the test footage (all good), then tried to restart....... Aaaarrrggghhhh! Wouldn't start again! No click, just very laboured and would hardly turn over. I put the car into 3rd gear, pressed the starter and it lurched forward slightly. Back into neutral, and it started immediately! I drove on for another 5 mins, stopped, shut off and attempted to restart (this time when pointing down hill). No luck, so bump started this time. What is wrong? Battery? Or is it something to do with the position the engine stops in sometimes? I luckily have time tomorrow to fix the car with your help, before leaving for Silverstone on Saturday am. Cheers, Dave David Smitheram, Wiltshire (South) AR, 07718 368173. 1400 supersport race car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shn7 Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 My guess is the battery's had it. You don't say what the voltage drops to after full charge and when cranking. But 8v is too low. Steve. Sussex (West) AR Not forgetting Percy the Polar Bear who recommends Puddle Pet Care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishy Dave Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 Yes, I'll check that again tomorrow after a full charge, thanks. What should the voltage drop to when cranking a healthy battery? David Smitheram, Wiltshire (South) AR, 07718 368173. 1400 supersport race car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnty Lyons Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 BATTERY 😶🌫️ 😶🌫️ 😶🌫️ jj N.I. L7C AR 🙆🏻 Membership No.3927. 240BHP 1900cc K Series 40th Anniversary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve T Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Heres a confusing one, 3 years with Banner and no problems starting, not one K click incident at all. Banner gets a bit out of shape was getting a bit slower at cranking so I changed for a PVR25 2 months ago. Now, since having PVR25 I have had K click 4 times out of 5 starts. Always clicks on first start attempt then works fine on second attempt. All connections perfect and 10v min on cranking, so battery/connections not an issue, so why has it started clicking now when it never did on the banner ??? Sorry if I hijacked. Steve Now with DVA Power! 191bhp and 150.9 lbft torque. My Pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Have you checked the security of the earth to the engine, and the large cables between battery and starter ? How about liquid levels inside the battery .. as you say the problem started after a race ... it will get hot under the bonnet ... maybe evaporating the battery electrolyte ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Ford Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Earth would be my bet. I tried all sorts of stuff with mine - including changing the starter motor. Eventually discovered that the bolt through which the earth attaches to the engine was badly corroded. It's a steel bolt into an ally casing, and transfers several hundred amps when starting. I cleaned that up and it's been fine ever since. -----Roger Ford Racing - demolishing tyre walls for 15 years and counting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishy Dave Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 Yes, I wondered if it was due to the heat, but the battery is a sealed 'no maintenance' unit (Halfords)? I know the earth from the battery negative to the chassis rail is good, where is the earth from the engine? I remember needing to disconnect it when removing the engine coming on two years ago, but can't remember where it is located on the engine? Thanks, Dave David Smitheram, Wiltshire (South) AR, 07718 368173. 1400 supersport race car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Should be pretty obvious - a big fat cable from engine to chassis. Worth undoing each end, checking metal to metal is clean, then re-fastening. Although battery is 'maintenance free', does it have removable caps on each cell ... perhaps under a cover plate ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Ford Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I think it's actually onto the clutch housing. I'll go take a photo a bit later. I assume your car is a K? You've implied, but not actually stated that. And (purely out of interest!) what series are you racing it in? -----Roger Ford Racing - demolishing tyre walls for 15 years and counting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishy Dave Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 It's a 1400K Supersport, and I race in the BARC Intermarque series. I have one earth from the battery negative terminal to the removable chassis rail above the battery, is this one correct? I will go outside shortly to track down the engine earth. David Smitheram, Wiltshire (South) AR, 07718 368173. 1400 supersport race car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 If it is attached to the removable section, you may want to unbolt the cable and the removable bit, and check the cleanliness (bare shiny metal) of all mating parts ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Sorry Dave but it may help if you tell everyone that the car is BOSS. Everyone knows your car Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here You and your seven toThe French Blatting Company Limited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishy Dave Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 Hi Norman Yes, It's 'Battered Old Supersport' although not so battered now David Smitheram, Wiltshire (South) AR, 07718 368173. 1400 supersport race car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djg Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 EU2 earth on my 1600 SS is located under one of the exhaust camshaft blanking plate bolts. Just looked HTH Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Ford Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Is that the "Chris Knott BARC Intermarque League" run by BARC south-east? Looks like a nice (read close!) selection of circuits, and I particularly like the championship entry fee of £25. Wouldn't mind a go at a few of them. Actually I'll be marshalling at the next meeting at Lydden, so I'll watch out for you. -----Roger Ford Racing - demolishing tyre walls for 15 years and counting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Ford Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 My car has a single earth strap from the battery to one of the starter motor bolts. See photos here. -----Roger Ford Racing - demolishing tyre walls for 15 years and counting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishy Dave Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 Yes, that's the series. It suited me as most of the races are Sundays or BH Mondays when I don't always have to work, plus I could only afford to do 4 rounds/8 races. I wanted to start my first ever race at the track I know best - Castle Combe. Click here I won't be at Lydden Roger, instead not doing any races over the summer, saving the last two rounds at Brands and Snetterton in October and November. Well, many of you were right, it looks like it was the (missing) earth. I just couldn't see one linking the engine to the chassis in any of the locations described, so added one and it fired first time! I will take it for a blat later just to be sure . I don't have an earth running between the battery and starter motor though. I don't think it ever has had one in my ownership now I think of it? Surprised it has been ok for all this time. Fingers crossed that's the end of the starting problems. Thank you all so much, you've saved me a lot more time and money. 😶🌫️ David Smitheram, Wiltshire (South) AR, 07718 368173. 1400 supersport race car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Hurrah for the POBC Now .. we have to concentrate our mental powers on fixing The Laddie's car tonight !! Edited by - Stationary M25 Traveller on 5 Jun 2009 14:23:46 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Whitley Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I don't think it ever has had one in my ownership now I think of it? Surprised it has been ok for all this time.Probably going via the speedo cable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnty Lyons Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Do not earth to the removable chassis rail. Earth from battery should be to top bellhousing bolt Earth from engine to chassis should be from nearside engine mount block bolt [any one ] to small bolt holding rubber mount to nearside chassis rail. The click mentioned earlier can develop at any time it is a function or age and number of starts. The two relays in MRFU have contact points which burn very slightly each time they open and as they burn the resistance increases thus after time there is a high resistance in the solenoid cct and actual voltage across solenoid is low so solenoid dosn't close with force and thus the main starter contacts which also burn slightly each time they open don't pass the high current required to turn the starter. You can always replace the MRFU and strip and clean the contacts in the starter motor Then again you could just clean the starter contacts and rewire the solenoid with a 30amp relay and heavy alternator cable direct from Battery and use the MRFU output to fire the new relay it will require so little current that the MRFU damage will have no effect and also will get no worse. Lecture over. jj N.I. L7C AR 🙆🏻 Membership No.3927. 240BHP 1900cc K Series 40th Anniversary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishy Dave Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 Thank you, I'm very grateful and will absorb and take action. David Smitheram, Wiltshire (South) AR, 07718 368173. 1400 supersport race car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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