lets talk about cornering....

[skydragon]

A question about driver input/style (perhaps the wrong forum section, but hey let's try here).

 

I'm aware that Caterhams have a tendancy to understeer on tight corners on-track and would appreciate feedback/advice on what is the best driving approach to fast cornering on a tight/slow corner, to minimise understeer.

 

Let's imagine we have a Hillclimb scenario where I'm on a narrow track, on a straight and up to speed and now I'm approaching a tight 90 deg right hand bend. Taking the ideal turn-in and apex point aside for the moment, what is the best technique with a Caterham to get around and exit the corner the in the fastest possible time?

 

I know there are also a myriad of car setup options which can affect car handling (anti-roll bar settings etc) as well as track camber etc, but let's leave these out of the equation for now and address just the ideal driver input.

 

As background - I'm driving a 1.6K supergrad car as a novice and trying to improve my driving skills for Hillclimbing. If you have a look at the second video down on this webpage here you'll see what i'm trying to address when I start trying too hard and start hauling the car around the corner.

 

Is it a case of more of 'slow in - fast out' ie. approaching at speed, braking hard, turning in at the correct point, hitting the apex correctly and then getting the power down hard?

 

I know everyone will have slightly different ideas, views and versions on what works best in a Seven, but I'm interested in all (constructive ) views.

 

edited to add - I'm running (naff) Yoko' A539 tyres, rather than Yoko AO48's to comply with my MSA Hillclimb class regs

 

 

1.6 K Series EU3, 2003, ex-SuperGrad car. now Orange/Black. My website here

 

Edited by - skydragon on 8 Apr 2009 14:00:00

[Graeme Smith]

I can't see the videos, but are you trail braking? If not, brake at your usual point - or perhaps a little later - and arrive at the turn-in point just a littlefaster than you want. Reduce the braking pressure and turn-in; being lightlyon the brakes will help with turn-in (though you won't have quick as much lateral, turning grip available so you'll have to be smooth). As soon as you've come all the way off the the brakes (just before the apex?), start pressing the throttle smoothly on - as JYS says don't press the throttle until you know you won't want to lift it any.

[skydragon]

No, I've never tried trail braking. Normally I would finish braking before I turned in. Sounds a plan, I'll give it a go.

[MarchHare2008]

Two options I'd say; either brake in a straight line deeper into the corner, get the car slowed down enough for a hard turn in and aim for a late apex (and relying on getting back on the throttle early to maximise exit speed) or trail brake and aim to carry speed through for a mid corner apex using weight transfer under braking to get the front to turn in and stick to the road.

 

The former may be quicker but is a risk in a race situation as it can allow a competitor up the inside. The risk with the latter is that you have to delay getting back on the throttle and your exit speed is compromised.

 

 

[Roger Ford]

Any particular corner? You seem to be getting oversteer coming out of the corners. Being more progressive on the gas might help with that. Must admit, I've only recently realised that my throttle has more than two positions.

[skydragon]

Roger - The first two corners mainly I guess on that video. What seems to happen is I turn, and turn, with understeer and then (as you say) that then snaps into oversteer once the back end gives up. I agree, I certainly need to be more mindful of using all controls more progressively. My main frustration was all my runs, however driven, were all around 74 secs, which ain't fast Somehow I'm throwing away a good 3 - 4 seconds +.

 

MarchHare - No problems with anyone trying to get up the inside of me just yet, as i'm only looking at this currently from a Hillclimbing context

[DSL]

In my opinion you need to be more aggressive on the brakes & as pointed out further up trail brake later & keep braking right into the apex/point of application of power.

 

Your worst area of understeer was after cresting a rise, I guess you came up the hill braked hard in a straight line then reapplied a modicum of power & turned in, therefore the front suspension rebounded upon release of the brakes then to compound the weight transfer you apply the throttle unloading the front grip further

 

There is a certain fellow who posts occasionally on here with a Caterham Busa, who on his last visit to Harewood managed a 56.62 run

[MarchHare2008]

The classic error with most people new to track (or hill climb) driving seems to be to try to carry too much speed into the early part of the corner, either due to not scrubbing off enough speed prior to turn in or due to getting back on the throttle too early (or too heavily) and then having to lift again before the exit.

 

Most people don't realise how hard you have to brake and it is very common for people to lift off the throttle some way before the brake point, coast up to and beyond the brake point and fail to scrub off enough speed before turn in. The front of the car then washes wide and you have to wait forever before you can get back on the throttle.

 

In summary; foot in all the way to the brake point, brake to the point where the tyres are struggling for grip, get enough speed off for the car to turn in without understeering (turning before you have fully released the brakes will help turn in but may encourage the back end to overtake!) then let the car run to the apex before progressively applying throttle to the exit and unwinding lock to avoid scrubbing off speed with more understeer.

 

Easier said than done though!

 

 

[skydragon]

Great feedback guys, just what i was after

 

Now all i need is to put this into practice... consistantly.... 😬

 

There is a certain fellow who posts occasionally on here with a Caterham Busa, who on his last visit to Harewood managed a 56.62 run

I find that comment extremely annoying *nono* 😬

[DSL]

You think that comment is extreamly annoying, you want to try living with him

 

Just ask my wife 😬 😬

 

In a nut shell MarchHare advice / synopsis is bang on the money, follow that advice well & your times will be slashed *thumbup*

[Dave Wilson]

Skydragon, I had a look at the videos and then read comments, Darren is spot on. You need to be more assertive on the brakes. You should be braking late, hard and only once. A couple of times you seem to be tying the rear wheels on down shift, get the speed down then change down, then turn in and back on the throttle. With my VX car, I try and kick the back out on the exit of slow corners with the power and then accelerate as hard as I can.

To be honest to be competitive at hillclimbing you must hit the apex's, you are missing most of them. Harewood, like most hills is all about lines, if you get them right your times will tumble. Remember what they taught you on the school day, wide in, hit apex and unwind steering and get on power.

The only in-car videos I've got is on a damp run, I'll post it up somewhere if it's any help

 

Keep trying

 

Dave

[Willie.]

Start the slide before you enter the corner, and then exit as you currently do. It won't be quick, but it'll definetly please the crowd, and that's worth 10seconds a corner.

 

I'm no racer man, but do concur (If that's worth the html its written on) that turning in on the brakes will help get rid of understeer. A word of warning though, I do this to intentionally provoke a slide. I'll come into a corner, brake with foot at an angle, as the car dives, I give quick yank on the wheel in the direction of the corner, and the tail comes round, I then keep braking lightly or roll onto the power as necessary to continue the slide through the corner.

 

Reason I describe the above in detail is because I've a suspicion you're going to do it inadvertantly. You'll find the tail alot looser when braking on turn in, and this is when your car setup will come into play. Toe out will help turn in, a softer rear ARB will help keep the rear from sliding.

 

When on the brakes, keep your steering inputs smooth and progressive, or you'll end up looking like a hero.

 

Again, I don't race and when I'm on track my performance is measure in degrees, not seconds...I just thought this might help.

 

Willie

p.s. Top marks for controlling the slides on the video.

[paul jacobs]

There is a lot of common sense here, but just one point that hasn't been picked up yet is your transition from power on, to brakes on hard, with a change down a cog. It doesn't appear that you are heel and toeing down the box, or even blipping on the downchange, and so you are unsettling the car when you change down and let out the clutch abruptly. This is also not doing your clutch or drivetrain any good.

 

If you haven't learnt to heel and toe, there is a very good thread on the driving forums a year or so ago. You may have to bend your accelerator pedal closer to the brake, but once you can use this technique without thinking it will save you fractions of a second each time you downchange and brake to go into a corner, you can still trail brake if required too.

 

Paul J.

My CSR now back with it's new and remapped Omex ECU - Hooray no more kangarooing and 268.6 bhp / 204lb-ft :-))

[Simon.Rogers1]

You don;t need to heel and toe.

 

If your applying the brakes as hard as you can and I mean as said above 100% on the limit heel and toeing is a distraction. Change down and deal with it. You know its coming.

 

It may not be smooth but hey.

 

I've now spoken with a number of top sprinters and hill climb champions and they don't have time either.

 

You should either be 100% brakes or 100% throtle. If you find yourself using any different degrees of brake or power it means you did something else wrong earlier.

 

Driving style will obviously have an effect on the cars handling but do not discount set up. If the cars set up well then you can concentrate on other things to make you go faster.

 

I know others will disagree about heel and toe.

[DSL]

Simon, I agree with you for the hills that there really is no need to heel & toe, just do the down shifting at the last minute to minimise the unsettling effects, however for circuit racing / trackdays I do use it as it keeps the car more balanced for higher speed corner entry's

 

The set up of the car is important for the last couple of seconds, but coming from the 74 second mark, at this stage concentrating on the driving will see by far the bigger gains

 

Simon do you have the linky to the year 2007 speed events video to show skydragon the couple of Harewood runs on there at all 🤔

[Simon.Rogers1]

Darren - Skydragon

 

here is a link to some video. I don't have DSL's run online as the DVD was to long but I do have my Harewood run from last year on our site. You'll also find a couple of other sprint/hill videos which may be worth watching

 

Management Team Member

 

[h_____]

When learning how to drive do it in this order.

1. learn the lines

2. learn how to exit corners quickly

3. learn how to enter corners quickly

 

focus on your lines first. Then advice on trail braking, to keep weight on the nose will help. A couple of books worth reading,

 

Going Faster

 

Drive to Win

 

Both are quite cheap, and show the basic elements of car control, like the traction circle and concepts like threshold braking. Reading these will help you understand what you need to be doing with the car.

 

Once you know what you should be doing, you just need to go and practice. after you've practiced for a while, tutition from a driver coach can be useful too.

 

We are all on the learning ladder somewhere or other! Just make sure you have fun while you do it.

[skydragon]

Thanks again chaps.

 

I've recently started toe and heeling on the road (after bending my accelerator pedal a tad so I could do this) and although I'm no expert, I have got to the point now where I can approach a bend/junction and shift down through the box quickly and quite smoothly whilst toe and heeling on every change.... however.... Harewood was a bit of a shock to me in that things happened so quickly (or appeared to me to) that I hadn't the time/skill/capacity to toe and heel in amongst just driving the course.

 

I'm wishing now I had another Harewood hill school day before my first real competition on May 9th to practice some more and to put some of these things into play. 😬

 

I guess if it was easy it wouldn't be fun. eh 😬

 

Thanks for the video links

[DSL]

Skydragon look at Simons video at Harewood, dat's the way to do it *thumbup*

 

Simon its going to be odd seeing you in a different coloured car this year ☹️

[Simon.Rogers1]

 

Tell me about it. Thank god I now have the low floor as now all I can see is the lights.

[Martin S.]

You don't need to heel and toe.

---

Here's my 2 penneth.......I remember a very scary tank slapping moment going up Lhergy Frissell hill in the IOM when I failed to heal & toe whilst braking on the limit and changing down for a right hander. I guess the need will also depend on your front/rear braking bias. I always heal and toe (but then I'm not as quick as Simon!)

 

Class 4 Zetec

[Peter Carmichael]

Looking at the video I would say your turn in is far too lazy. You need to take a Seven by the scruff of the neck for slow speed corners. I'm not in any way suggesting that the steering inputs should be jerky, but there is plenty of room for the initial steering input to be smooth but fast.

 

Just as you come off the brakes you have momentarily an extra bit of grip. You use this extra grip with an aggressive turn in to counter the natural low speed understeer. The braking needs to be positive for this to work and you need to have braked up to the turn in point. All of which requires a level of finesse that takes a bit of practice. I can't see Simon's videos but I suspect that is what you will see him doing (with his elbows out).

[paul jacobs]

Actually Peter, I think he is actually turning in a tad too early, and being lazy/slow, in the first 2 right handers of the first vid. you see him turn in and then momentarily give a quick left twitch and then put the lock on again, which indicates to me that he should have left his turn in a little later and then turn in aggresivly, as you say, with one smooth turn in then undwind the lock once the apex has been clipped with strong power, but enough to spin up the back and throw the tail out.

 

Simon, sorry, I don't really see your point in not heel and toeing down the box, if it means that you jump off the clutch and lock up the back end momentarily, that has got to be bad, it's no good saying "you know it's coming, deal with it". You know it's coming so learn to heel and toe properly, if nothing else it means that you don't lose any time transferring your foot from throttle to brake and back to throttle again, as you are already there on both of them. 😬 [Get out of that one then ]

 

Paul J.

My CSR now back with it's new and remapped Omex ECU - Hooray no more kangarooing and 268.6 bhp / 204lb-ft :-))

[Simon.Rogers1]

If choose to change down at the optimum point you do not need to heel and toe. Never had a problem. Never ever done it. The only place I'd get a slight lock up was on entry to the bus stop at Llandow and I'd use that momentary lock up to get the back loose ready for the switch back and power.

 

With the paddle shift i do not use it either.

 

I would put a wager that if it was all measured with sensors you simply can not brake as hard whilst rolling your foot as you can just pressing the brake pedal. Not possible. You should be on the very edge of braking feeling the last little bit of grip.

 

It may not be nice to the box - never said that it would be. But I know what the quickest way is.

 

Coming from a bike (MotoX) background doesn't help either.

[Peter Carmichael]

Simon,

 

By contrast, I am heel and toe-er. It is so well practiced that it takes no mental effort to do. I disagree somewhat with the "if you do it at the optimum point" line of reasoning but I don't argue with results. You can get away without it, yes. You can also work it into your driving as long as it is never a big deal and isn't getting in the way of more important stuff.