RiF Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 So frequently there are postings about how to fix cycle wings and what works, how long for, etc. As you know there has been a bulk buy of Bighead fixings (well done Phil) but there are many more questions still unanswered on how best to glue them on. I think everyone that has used the Bigheads with cable ties thinks it works well but the main questions are on how best to attach them to a wing for the long term. I have been thinking using our extensive knowledge on adhesives (some we manufacture) whether we can improve on the different methods used so far. What I am after is a local L7C group to have a bit of fun testing some of my ideas to destruction plus playing around with the various methods to see which is preferred. No free samples for your cars but total reject wings supplied with Bigheads and several glues plus possible ways to add a patch of reinforcement over the Bighead. You then use what ever means you think of to replicate the life of a wing (accelerated testing in the pub car park ). If someone wants to try other adhesives I don't have a problem. The main aim is to have a recommmended system for attaching cycle wings (without bolts ). If our products are the best, great, but if they are not I don't care (except pride ). I am seriously concerned on wings coming off and although there will be no guaranteed system I think we can make it better. Although better for business if they come off, after stuggling to make good wings I will cry if any get damaged now 😬 Speaking to our BB man, I gather it will be a couple of weeks wait for the Bigheads so plenty of time for added imput for me to think around. RiF Driving one of the first Duratec 7, and building CA07BON for Henrietta 😬 😬 😬.for pictures of 7 and carbon andCA07BON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grubbster Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Sounds fun but I think the answers are probably well documented already. For me Sikaflex 292 - if it holds bits of yachts together then it must be pretty tough, my bigheads have been on for about 3 years now and still no sign of any movement - shame you can't buy it in small tubes though. Preparation of the components is also key (no pun intended 😬) Anyway, the experiment sounds fun, I'll enjoy reading up on the results , I hope nobody gets injured by a flying wing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiF Posted January 9, 2008 Author Share Posted January 9, 2008 From the feedback I keep getting is that although Sikaflex is widely used there are still failures. This could be down to preparation as preparation will be the most important factor. I am sure we can improve on the installation, whether it is simply writing good instructions or by using different adhesive or adding reinforcements. RiF Driving one of the first Duratec 7, and building CA07BON for Henrietta 😬 😬 😬.for pictures of 7 and carbon andCA07BON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry21p Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Doesn;t the outfit that Delbert works for make the stuff that's better than Sillyflex (or whatever it's called?). I recall him mentioning it once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angus Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 RiF (Slight thread hijack).... What about incorporating the BigHeads into the carbonfibre layers as the wing is manufactured ? That would avoid the need for glues completely. (Or have I the wrong idea about how carbon fibre is manufactured). Regarding your testing proposal, Surrey area has a reasonably large membership - perhaps one of the area leadership team will be along to comment on your proposal. Steve - where are you ..... Angus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grubbster Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Incorporating the bighead into the wing would be good - but I doubt the manufacturing tolerences of the wing stays are good enough to make sure the wings end up in the right place. I did write some very detailed instructions on fitting bigheads ages ago (involves attaching the bigheads to the stays, then glueing the wings to the bigheads while in situ, this means you can position the wings perfectly). I think some of the failures are down to poor prep (need to clean and abrade the bighead and wing), or using the wrong adhesive (Sikaflex 291 for instance is no use at all). I'm in Gosport if that helps at all, happy also to dig out the instructions I wrote before if anyone wants them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bricol Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Incorporate the bigheads into the wing as suggested - they do all sorts of versions just for that purpose -the tye-wraps should allow for production tolerances in the wing and the stays. Or use the studded ones embedded in the wing and attach to the stay using plastic, or rubber lined metal, P-clips - that should allow some tolerance in positioning, plus a bit of give. I've found that their own glue is pretty fantastic - used it and studded big heads to hold a GRP front bumper on my integrale - held the car up when I proved it wouldn't fit over a standard car ramp. Personally, I'm sticking, on the seven, with my tried and tested method . . stainless socket button head screws . . . 😬 Bri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blade_runner Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Worth pointing out, that some failures have been due to the wire on the big head failing from its base, not the bonding failing between the base and wing. 'Pinky Pics' here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil G Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Clearly there is more than one way to skin a cat and each method has probably worked for some and failed for others; however, IMHO what Richard is proposing is a step in the right direction. Offering a fixing method/kit that has a proven track record and will give a high degree of confidence to enthusiast of differing skill levels. I don’t think one can totally design-out possible mechanical failures such as blade-runner has highlighted. QC problems are a fact of life in engineering. It’s just a bugger when it’s your wing bouncing down the road. *cry* SummerLightningHaze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiF Posted January 10, 2008 Author Share Posted January 10, 2008 The reason moulding Bigheads in, is not done, is that as the carbon is very thin, you will see a pattern of the Bighead on the main surface of the wing and I don't think anyone will like that. Would be pleased to have any instructions available as the more information we can all use the easier it will be to try and get the ideal method to suit everyone. RiF Driving one of the first Duratec 7, and building CA07BON for Henrietta 😬 😬 😬.for pictures of 7 and carbon andCA07BON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrone Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 Richard, I think I speak for the whole NE7 clan by volunteering our services on the strength of proximity to you and our inherent ability to test to destruction. 😬 Email me if we can help. NE Area Rep Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer, We'll keep the red flag flying here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angus Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 The reason moulding Bigheads in, is not done, is that as the carbon is very thin, you will see a pattern of the Bighead on the main surface of the wing and I don't think anyone will like that. Indeed, any new design would need to avoid that. How about if the existing CF thickness is maintained, but additional CF applied during manufacture sufficient to retain the Big Heads ? That would maintain the existing thickness so surface distortion or transparency avoided. Would that work ? Angus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiF Posted January 11, 2008 Author Share Posted January 11, 2008 Mr N.E. Area Rep sound good to me. Will let you know as soon as I have the parts, could also give me an excuse to come to one of your meetings 😬 Angus, any reinforcement moulded in would also show on the surface, unfortunately. The only way is to bond on later. RiF Driving one of the first Duratec 7, and building CA07BON for Henrietta 😬 😬 😬.for pictures of 7 and carbon andCA07BON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grubbster Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 You wouldn't be able to mould them into the wing anyway - no 2 pairs of wingstays are the exactly the same (IMO) so the bigheads would never be in quite the right position - or you'd have to bend the wingstays around until the wing looks like it is in the right place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrone Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 Richard . I was about to fit my new wings. What timescale are we looking at? NE Area Rep Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer, We'll keep the red flag flying here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiF Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 Thanks Grubbster Brian, a couple of weeks for the bulk buy of Bigheads to arrive. Then I can supply the samples. Just may be earlier as trying to get a few samples direct RiF Driving one of the first Duratec 7, and building CA07BON for Henrietta 😬 😬 😬.for pictures of 7 and carbon andCA07BON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrone Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Spot on, I won't bother fitting the new ones. How many guinea pigs do you need? NE Area Rep Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer, We'll keep the red flag flying here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiF Posted January 15, 2008 Author Share Posted January 15, 2008 Thought is to have a group play around fixing them on to a wing without instructions (for ideas) and bring some already assembled along to break off with a bar 😬 From those results you can be the guinea pig and we can all blame the NE lads if they come off 😬 When is your next monthly meet? RiF Driving one of the first Duratec 7, and building CA07BON for Henrietta 😬 😬 😬.for pictures of 7 and carbon andCA07BON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrone Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 😬 Wednesday 30th January. NE Area Rep Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer, We'll keep the red flag flying here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiF Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share Posted January 28, 2008 Brian, OK for this Wednesday??? Any directions? What time? Big heads glued on for your lads to test RiF Driving one of the first Duratec 7, and building CA07BON for Henrietta 😬 😬 😬.for pictures of 7 and carbon andCA07BON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrone Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Richard, I've just posted a reminder for this month's meeting on Chitchat. The venue is: Church Mouse Vintage Inn, Innkeeper's Lodge Durham North, Great North Road, Chester Moor, Chester-le-Street, Durham, DH2 3RJ If you have trouble locating it give me a call on Wednesday. NE Area Rep Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer, We'll keep the red flag flying here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strij Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 If you bond bighead stud type fixings to the wing won't you have trouble fitting the wing to the stay. The stays are approx 90 degrees apart so unless you have some flex in the fittings the wing would only fit to one side of the stay, the other two studs would foul the stay before aligning with its fixing holes. You could fit the studs to the stays and then bond the wing on but then you would make it very difficult to remove without bending something. It was for this reason that I bonded aluminium channels across the inside of the wing, one stay drops into its channel the wing can then be rotated on to the other channel before fitting clamp bolts through both sides of the channel and stay. It also makes it very easy to remove/replace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrone Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 The bighead fasteners I saw last night are not studs. They are more like a buckle which allows a cable tie (or two cable ties) to be fed through and draw down against the wingstay. The initial tests carried out by the NE7's intended to test the pull off strngth of the fastener and various types of adhesive. Our initial conclusion is that the point of failure will be the cable tie and not any of RiF's proposed methods of attachment. The choice the buyer has is to use the big head fasteners, recommended adhesive and cable ties which will allow easy removal of the wings when required or to bond the wings permanently or to bolt through. From my assessment last night I will be using the big heads and cable ties. RiF has stressed the importance of preparation in his usual meticulous manner. Once again, thanks for coming to see us last night Richard. All the guys who had not met you before were very impressed in the obvious care and pride you take in your products. NE Area Rep Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer, We'll keep the red flag flying here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angus Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Will someone be posting a report of the testing ? Very interested in learning of the results and any tips before launching into the fitting process ! Thanks Angus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrone Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Yes, probably. NE Area Rep Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer, We'll keep the red flag flying here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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