Crashworthiness

[Lucky Steve]

Roger Green's pictures and words in the latest 'low flying' make chilling reading of the dangers of being hit from behind in a Seven. What I would like to know is what difference a full racing spec roll cage (which I think was fitted here) makes to the outcome compared to the standard road going version (ie mine).

 

Also, what safety benefits, if any, come with a racing harness when compared to the standard three point?

 

While not paranoid about the subject (would otherwise have bought a Volvo), I would like to know more about what I can do to protect myself from blind Toyota Supra drivers et al.

 

Steve

[Slipper man]

Like you, I am not paranoid, but Roger's accident did bring home to me the potential dangers.

 

A decent set of 6 point belts are definitely worth investing in because they are immesurably superior to the three point system in virtually every way, and (to me) are much more comfortable. Four points are better than three, but if you are going to upgrade, you might as well go for 6 point.

 

The roll cage makes a big difference too, because it helps to stop the car wrappnig itself around you. The trouble is that unless you are going to wear a helmet all the time, there are too many bits of roll cage to hit your head on, so I doubt that you are better off in a road accident.

 

My compromise is an FIA bar (also a big improvement provided you have head rests - otherwise you could be killed in a low speed rear ender by hitting your head on the cross bar) plus a wheel intrusion bar. All the weather equipment still fits fine, and the car is much better than standard.

[Snapper]

Since having four point harnesses I would not go back to three point belts.

 

I like the idea of a cage but because of the points made by Keith about head protection I feel that I just wouldn't drive the car as much.

 

I have now become concerned about my head protection with the FIA bar, because even with the head rests I have got with the touring seats, it does bring home how close your head is to all the metal of the roll bar. I am also concerned what protection the FIA bar will offer if any, if the car was to roll because of my head height in the car.

 

 

[Jason Plato]

On a slightly different tangent ...... you know the cars usually come with a plywood boot floor - Is there any saftey reasons for this ?? , would replacing this with an ally sheet create the risk of the ally sheet slicing through your back ??? or altering the impact crush of the boot floor .

Not a nice topic I know but could be quite serious ??

 

Dave

[Mike Bees]

I read somewhere that the plywood floor shouldn't be replaced because it is designed to be part of the crash structure (maybe it's in the build manual circa 1997?).

 

Mike

[AMMO]

I'm glad we are talking about these issues. I have been thinking about the safety of the FIA bar when used without a helmet for some time. Ive been wanting to post about the possible dangers but been putting it to the back of my mind.

 

The pictures of Roger's crash made me shudder.

 

I have bench seats with no headrests and just foam around the cross-member of the FIA bar. This is probably not the best idea. I'm going to add more padding to the roll bar before I go out in the car next. Don't care if it looks unsightly. Don't really want to be brained by a metal tube in case of an accident.

 

Even with the headrests I think there are potential dangers. In an impact the harnesses are likely to stretch and it is impossible to predict what your head will come in contact with.

 

AMMO

[Jason Plato]

Hmmmmm , thats what I always thought Mike - but it no appears that caterham are offering an ally sheet to replace the ply with ??

 

Dave

[Foxy Smith]

Like you all Roger Green's pictures made me shudder as for some time now I have been concerned about vunerability in rear end collision. Given the low profile of the seven the chances of being rear ended by unobservant drivers are high. My major concern however is that of the fuel tank which is a fragile article in our cars. It sounds from the article that Roger's tank was split/damaged and fuel spilled. What could happen after that doesn't bear thinking about especially given the fact that most of us use multi point harnesses and require steering wheel to be removed before getting out of the car.

 

In my car the boot floor has been replaced with ali honeycomb by a previous owner. I'm not sure how much additional rigidity or protection this offers if any. I'm still giving thought as to how the tank can be further protected until then I'm keeping one eye on the mirror in vunerable situations.

 

[caterhamnut]

Interesting thread. Can someone tell me where the wheel intrusion bar goes. I am guessing it is the bar I thought was some sort of additional side-impact protection bar, mounted on the cockpit sides?

 

Edited by - angus&tessa on 11 Mar 2002 10:00:09

[Robin Renton]

Just in front of the rear wing - to prevent the rear wheel coming into the cockpit area and busting one's pelvis.

Robin.

[Ade Ray]

Hello everyone

 

I was hit last October by Vectra man when he failed to give way at a roundabout. His car impacted at 90 degrees to me on my rear left wheel arch. The impact spun me round 180 degrees, ripped of my wheel arch, live axle, crushed the fuel tank and bent the chassis. I walked away with out a scratch or any aches and pains.

 

I was very impressed at how the car stood up to the impact. The car has an FIA roll bar but no other strengthening. I do have foam padding that my brother Simon put on for me and I found that was sufficient to cushion my head although it was a glancing blow as the main movement was sideways.

 

I dont think I would go for a full cage unless Katie was just a track car but even without one I feel much safer in my 7 then I do when I am driving my wifes little Daewoo Matiz.

 

ADe smile.gif

 

Make the world a better place, hug an estate agent

[allen]

In a rear ender, what effect does removal of spare wheel have - or using a model that has no provision for a spare?

 

This is a weight saving move I have considered and discounted on safety grounds

 

allen

[AMMO]

Allen

 

This is something I have also thought about. I will keep my spare wheel as I feel it offers some extra protection if rear-ended.

 

 

 

 

 

AMMO

[Graham Sewell]

It certainly spreads the load across more chassis rails thereby protecting the tank.

 

Cheers,

 

Graham

 

Low tech luddite - xflow and proud!

 

Edited by - Graham Sewell on 11 Mar 2002 15:13:03

[Paul Turner]

Back in 1989 about 2 months into my first sevens life I was rear ended by a Cavalier whilst waiting to leave the M1 slip road at J 24. The car had the ply boot floor, standard roll bar and the spare wheel was in place. It was not a high speed impact (I was stationary) but I was surprised how well the seven stood up, the Cavalier needed a new bumper and grille assembly, the seven needed a new rear skin, number plate carrier, spare wheel carrier etc but the chassis tubes pulled strait (all by Arch). The main problem was removing the spare wheel as the number plate carrier had folded into it, but there was no damage to the fuel tank. Arch checked the car and declared it OK to drive until the winter (it did not look to bad until the spare wheel was removed) when it was lovingly repaired. The guy paid me out in cash based on Arch's estimate (bit of a risk but I did not want to be without the car during the summer when I had waited many years for one) and I more than covered my costs. When Dad was rear ended in his Primera at a lower speed the damage was far greater and the costs were unbelievable.

 

Paul

[stutch]

Just thinking about accidents etc. I have a 1700 SS (1990) with a standard roll bar and I've always been concerned that my head is at a higher level than the top of the bar so if I roll it my head'll burst like a pumpkin. Anyway I spoke to Redline re. a taller roll bar - perhaps the FIA type and they advised me that the FIA bar would give greater protection but only if the supporting strut was in place. (Presumably the strut that goes into the passenger footwell?) Otherwise Redline suggested that without the strut the FIA bar would offer less protection than the one I currently have fitted. Can anyone suggest a way of improving cockpit safety for my car without having to leave the passenger at home or have I misunderstood Redline's description. Any advice most welcome - I'm also frightened of being hit especially when I have my four year old son in the car.

[Graham Sewell]

Why would the FIA offer less protection? It is higher and stronger and more securely fastened to teh chassis. Albeit that I was worried about the cross brace behind the head for road use with bench seats. So Caterham did a custom one.

 

Low tech luddite - xflow and proud!

[stevefoster]

Two things that have not been mentioned. Surviving the impact

is first priortity.

I have the tillet race seat and added safety devices foam on the FIA bar. Since the JPE screen it is strictly helmet on always.

6 points are a must IMHO.

 

The tank will always be vunerable in the type of impact Roger had. I have the tank protection kit as I would suspect the car Roger was driving had.

Fire is a real risk and a terrible thought!

 

1. An inertia switch is a good idea to kill the engine and fuel pumps. These work in all planes and this impact would have activated it for sure. Roger wrote about killing the engine manually. Perhaps this car did not have an inertia swtich.

The K series cars have one as standard.

 

2. A simple switch at the back of the car operating a plumbed in fire extinguisher that empties it contents to the tank area must be quite easy to sort out.

I have the extinguisher today going to engine bay, my feet and the tank. I am thinking of taking off the 'my feet' outlet in favour of more pressure to the engine and tank area.

 

 

[bstark]

Parp!

 

Can anyone tell me the best place to get some suitable foam for my FIA bar? I'm based near Maidstone in Kent.

 

Thanks!

 

 

Bob Stark

Supersprint first-timer

[Mike C.]

I thought that Roger's description of the accident was more chilling than the photographs.

 

When I met Hugh Noblett a couple of years ago, he pointed out that the Seven is a small, vulnerable vehicle and it is important to make yourself as visible as possible - including driving on dipped headlamps in daylight.

 

It must make sense to have a vivid colour scheme, but has anyone fitted a raised, third, rear brakelight?

 

Mad Manx

[andycox]

One solution for high level brake light here.

 

Is it SUMMER yet? teeth.gif

 

[Graeme Smith]

Racing regs state that rollcages should be padded where a drivers head could come into contact with them, and that there should be a head restraint less then 5cm behind the drivers head. Bars/cages should also give 5cm of clearance between a helmeted head and the top of the bar/cage. All of these would make sense on the road as well. The Caterham rollcage even has mounts to put a head restraint behind the drivers head. I can't see that a rollcage would be less safe than a bar in most forseeable circumstances. If your head made contact with the cage during a crash; if it wasn't there it'd be making contact with the road...

[Ben Willis]

I fitted a high level brake light to my old 7. A small vertical flat plate (about 5" wide by 2" high) was welded to the middle of the top roll bar tube and a small hole drill for the wiring to pass through and run down through the tubing. I got a conventional light from Europa or someone - originally from a trailer. This worked very well and looked very neat. People tell me that if you have one car between a 7 and you on the motorway, the 7 disappears completely, until the brake light comes on. I also had a yellow roll bar which I think helped.

 

I am sure the FIA bar is a big risk without a crash helment. It is a large part of the reason I got the high back R500 seats as on my leather ones the head restraint was far too low. I am sure even with that and padding a decent punt from behind would do my head the world of no good.

 

Ben

[JP]

Quick question about the FIA bar: I need to have the leather seats in my 7 and I need to have them as far back as possible. Can they go all the way back or does the headrest foul on the bar/crossbar?

James

[andycox]

JP, like you I have the seat set to the rear limit. I fitted the FIA bar the seat was a little more forward than before. You can get it to go back all the way but it takes a good push with your feet to squash the headrest foam aginst the cross bar.

 

Is it SUMMER yet? teeth.gif