AndrewB

Post #106 by AndrewB I do find the statement below (and similar) to be too convenient and thrown around far too freely when this topic comes up for discussion. 'If you would like to be part of any criminal or negligence investigation because you lowered the required standards then more fool you!' A change to the Lotus Clubs track day rules would bring it in line with industry standards. All you are accepting is that the lotus club were overzealous in their formative years, due to a lack of knowledge of hosting such events, now they are more knowledgeable then they have matched the rest of the industry. yes/no ??? Interestingly no one (bar Ian (excuse the pun)) has chosen to discuss the heads above the roll bars issue?

Post #97 by Steve_K Apols to Derek and Jim, at the risk of taking this thread further away from the name issue and just to clarify; failure of the MT to comply with their legal duties for safety is potentially a criminal matter (policed by the Health and Safety Executive in the event of a serious accident), No 'claim' is necessary for the law to take its course. Furthermore it isn't possible for a personal acceptance of risk to somehow indemnify the MT since this is a criminal matter. Steve

Post #96 by JamesB Worth adding, as Christine pointed out in her 'Happy Xmas' thread, that one of the more significant undertakings by the Club in 2017 has been the commissioning of a professional review of alternative rollover bar specifications to see if there are grounds for allowing the Club to amend its "trackday bar only" requirement on Club trackdays that has been in place since 1996. If all goes to plan then we will be publishing the outcome from this review in January - aiming to hit both Lowflying and BlatChat at the same time if we can. Time now, surely, for this thread to move back towards the original topic. After all, we're not due our next twice-yearly rollover bar discussion for a little while yet... James

Post #92 by SForshaw "Would there be a negligence claim if the data showed the normal bar was suitable and L7C took that (professional) advice? & Could there be a negligence claim if the signed waiver stated that the structural suitability of the roll over bar was the owners responsibility?" Andrew, anyone can make a legal claim for negligence on a whim or emotion, they just need to satisfy a lawyer that they have a case. Whether a claim would be successful is a different matter but it would need to be defended. Re the 2" rule, it is there and it would be easy to police, it purely needs advance notification because in my belief this does effectively become a change over what has been "allowed" to go in the past. With the standard height FIA bar fitted, it would be unusual to not achieve the necessary clearance either by removing the seat swab or reclining the seat a little depending on what you have fitted.

Post #90 by IanB “ As I stated before, having seen pictures of L7C trackdays with heads and helmets above the roll bar (including the half FIA bar) then L7C are more at risk of a claim for not policing that issue. More importantly, people are more likely to suffer a serious injury because of it. Interestingly no one seems to comment on this issue ! ” Err, I have several times, both when on the MT and not, but as usual was shouted down by the majority of MT members who are sprinters, and who refuse to listen to reasoned argument. They seem to believe that the regulations that cover competitive motorsport should be applied to recreational track days.

Post #88 from AndrewB It's not about whether the normal bar is on a par with the half FIA bar. It is about whether the normal bar is suitable. BookaTrack and every other professional track day organiser consider it suitable. Questions that need answering include : Would there be a negligence claim if the data showed the normal bar was suitable and L7C took that (professional) advice? & Could there be a negligence claim if the signed waiver stated that the structural suitability of the roll over bar was the owners responsibility? As I stated before, having seen pictures of L7C trackdays with heads and helmets above the roll bar (including the half FIA bar) then L7C are more at risk of a claim for not policing that issue. More importantly, people are more likely to suffer a serious injury because of it. Interestingly no one seems to comment on this issue ! When I bought the kit I tried the different S3, S5, tillets, leather, lowered floors, non lowered floor combinations, I felt better 'tucked in' in an S5 with leather seats and lowered floors. My head is a good distance my normal roll bar.

Post #87 from Simon.Rogers Aa an ex MT member and Comp Sec as above. Unless the new standard bar was miraculously found to be of a higher standard than the FIA bar there is now way any accountable managing body can backtrack on safety without opening the door for a negligence claim should the worst happen. Stu is correct. Whatever the tests and analysis find, in the real world it aint going to happen.

Post #86 from Steve_K Andrew, I used to belong in the safety world and I have to agree with Stu and Marcus. The only credible way back from the previous decision is for the MT to hold and accept an authoritative safety assessment which indicates that the two rollbars provide an equivalent level of safety. The relatively small cost difference between the two options (even with the cost of the labour to upgrade) suggest to me that obtaining such an assessment would not be very likely. I suspect that the two bars aren't too different in the real world until it comes to a really high severity accident when the additional strength of the FIA bar will come into play, but we're talking about the MT meeting its duties under safety legislation and my engineering judgement isn't really relevant. Steve

Post #84 from Mucus72 Andrew, there was a fantastic article a few years back in LF about roll bars, with diagrams and reasoning. It really helped me think about where my head was, and that I wanted to be as safe as possible. I am 6’6” and have used both lowered floors and a bag seat to get as low as possible. If you look at an FIA bar versus a standard one, and the additional mountibg points, then you’d feel more comfortable on track too I would have thought, irrespective of the TDO used I haven’t done a club track day, because I have mates that drive other types of cars and we tend to do our own thing open pit lane wherever, but I don’t think I’d want anything less than the FIA bar anyway. My quandary is one step beyond that. I would feel better with a full roll cage, but then that limits my ability to tour and I don’t want to always wear a helmet for road trips.

Post #83 from SForshaw Andrew, no I'm not on the MT, but I was previously an AR and I've been at meetings where it's been discussed, and my belief is it'll never go back to a standard bar. Also on your second point, the FIA bar is taller than the standard bar. Stu.

Post #82 from AndrewB Stu, the last official club message I saw on here was that the roll bar was being discussed and we would be informed of any changes. If you are on the MT and you are confirming there will be no change then at least I now know that for sure. As for any fallout for the MT members from a change to a different, but still adequate bar according to professional track day organisers, then I seriously doubt there would be any. I suspect that comment / train of thought was invented to protect the criteria for a semi FIA roll bar. The roll bar issue is no different to most issues regarding H&S. It is quite normal to be over zealous at first and then revisit and relax on an issue once more and better data is available. If I were an MT member I would be more worried about injuries relating to the head being above the roll bar or not 50mm below the roll bar. There are pictures of L7C track days showing that this is not being policed. Anyway, regardless of views all the best to everyone. I need to go and make the last of my new light fittings for the garage and do some wrapping.

Post #77 by SForshaw Andrew, time to face reality, it might be discussed further and possibly until the cows come home, but having ruled many years ago that for "club" days the FIA bar is the minimum requirement, it isn't going to change. Consider that during that time there's been a move to a full cage for competition use. If it changed and there was a serious incident, I wouldn't want to be the member of the MT that had to justify the change back to a lesser bar and I'm sure you wouldn't either. I'm all for change and progress, reverting to a standard bar would not be progress. Stu.

Post #76 by AndrewB Fitting isn't an issue Stu, I built the car myself and so swapping a bar, dropping the rear spring/damper and changing a few bolts is not an issue. The point is that other track day organisers do not require it. It is great to see the trackday program growing and doing so well but is it open to everyone in the Lotus Club? No it isn't. We were told it was being discussed but there has been nothing for 6 months or so. Despite the weather I had a good day at the Donnington Club Track Day which was run by Book a Track who allow normal roll bars.

A place to discuss the Lotus 7 Club required track day roll over bar vs the standard one that comes with your car from Caterham. I will have a quick trawl through the other lotus name thread and cut and paste some of the comments here.

The first prototype arrived today. I have added some pictures to the blog along with my thoughts. Updates will have to wait a week or so due to work but I will post again when I have an update.

I am waiting on delivery of a test one. I will post pictures and comments and get another printed. As a one off printed item the cost was £11. This would be cheaper for a bulk order. Different sizes and designs are easy but i will see how well this one works before doing anything else.

I ordered a new set of 14" Minilites but didn't like the push through centre caps that came with them. They push through by just over 40mm and didn't look right. Having wanted to try some 3D printing for a while I have built a crude (24 segment) centre cap in sketch up and sent it for printing as a trial. If it seems like it may be the answer I'll smooth it up in Blender and get it printed to a higher resolution. Has anyone printed centre caps before? Image Here

That is excellent, I hadn't seen this but found it while looking to post about 3D printing.

Fantastic.

Hi Neil, The weblink is the same part number as the one that is on my car at the moment. When I installed mine I split some washer tube and wrapped it over the sensor cable from teh sensor to the connector. A few tie wraps hold the washer tube on and onto the car. I can't recall who gave me that gem of advice. Andrew

Reading the tech page for the sensor it is described as being robust and suitable for fast response. You can buy the sensor from Farnell although you will have to put an econoseal connector on it which you can get from polevolt. http://uk.farnell.com/schneider-electric/xs108b3nal2/inductive-sensor-2-5mm-12-24vdc/dp/2455529

Great pictures thank you.

Bob, I have the same types of tyre and found the R888r's a marked improvement aswel when I took them out last weekend in the dry. I also had a bit of a track day last week at Donnington, I say it was a bit of a track day as it was wet then very wet. It was hard to judge the tyres on the track as I had no comparison with the Uniroyals, however on the drive home the tyres behaved very well and I didn't have any lock up's or aqua planning. I am certainly more confident about driving in the wet with them now.

They did re-open it at about 3.30pm but it was wet and with fewer cars out it didn't dry as quick as the morning. I watched a few cars and then went home myself.

Just noticed the weather having this weekend taken off my uniroyal rainsports and put some new R888R's on the car. I feel like I may be sat in the garage for most of the day. 'Currently kicking myself'.