Points system proposal

[Jason Plato]

Hi everyone

 

I cant make it to the Awards on sunday and the forum afterwards, but I have given a proposal to Mark . A copy of which I have posted below for all to see and consider.

 

Please have a read

 

"Points System proposal

 

 

The current points system has been established for several seasons and could be considered for review. Currently the points that 1st place man in class is able to score is dependent upon the performance of 2nd place man. Therefore the championship points can be influenced by either how competitive your individual class is or by the persons who attend any one particular venue. Which often ends up with the situation of – “Joe bloggs isn’t coming to Aintree so I can possibly score a max 21.5” ……. Or “there are only 3 in my class so I can only score 20.5”. Neither situation is really desirable or one on which to build competition. Drivers can drive their socks off but may actually be slower than last years times or they may feel let down as there is only enough entrants to score 20.5 points and they can see their championship hopes disappear . Or we may have a situation where one person dominates a class and class entrants start to dwindle. Neither situation is desirable or builds competition.

 

Thus the current system does not provide a true reflection of the individual drivers skill, speed and commitment as the points scored are influenced by the performance others in your class and the number of class entrants.

 

No bear with me – my proposal doesn’t just encompass the top runners ………

 

My proposal is this :

 

We change the points system to one based upon class records for individual venues.

 

There would be no minimum points based upon minimum entrants in class – as everyone is judged against the class record irrespective of who else turns up – this will help class 1, 4 and possibly class 6

 

There would be however be a maximum points attainable of 21.50 just to keep things in check.

 

It would work like this –

Class record + 20.00 seconds = class bogey time .

 

Points scored (to a maximum of 21.50 ) = Class bogey time – Actual time

 

As an example :

Class record for Class 5 at Curborough = 56.99 seconds .

Hence Class bogey time = 76.99seonds .

 

Leading driver posts a time of 56.90 seconds, therefore points scored = 20.09

Second place driver posts a time of 57.20, therefore points scored = 19.79

Tenth place driver posts a time of 59.89, therefore points scored = 17.10

 

So everyone who currently scores points down to a time 20 seconds slower than 2nd place man would continue to score points as at present– but relative to the class record – this in my opinion can only be an improvement, as we are all then judged against the class record.

 

Plus Everyone has the chance to score more than 20.00 points if they can beat the existing class record for that venue. So the situation where 2nd place man only ever scores 20.00 is abolished. Thus keeping the championship very tight.

 

If its wet, its unlikely that the class record will be beaten, but again the faster everyone drives and the closer everyone gets to the class records the more points you score.

 

If we go to a new venue where we don’t have a class record established , then the class record is determined on the first timed run. This time then becomes the basis for the bogey time on subsequent timed runs.

 

The only downside is that if we go to a venue and its starts to rain half way through the classes – say after class 2 , then its unlikely that class 3 to 6 will be able score as many points as class 1 and 2 did. But we should remember that we have 2 timed runs to count for points and we have the option of dropped scores.

 

I have experienced this points system in the Association of South West Championship, and in my honest opinion this method of points scoring makes for a tighter more competitive championship, where everyone is judged on their individual performances against established class records irrespective of how many or who else turns up on the day or weather conditions in your class.

It really does provide a clear indication of exactly who drove hard and who has pushed hard relative to previous class records and who should be crowned Speed Champion. Plus it actually encourages novice drivers, who can immediately see how they compare to the very fastest in class and get rewarded with points all the way down to 20.00 seconds slower than class record. It drives the Championship forward, it encourages drivers to go faster and gain points, irrespective of who else is present in class.

 

I hope you will consider this for next year – I really think it will add value, strength and increase competition within our Championship.

 

And finally – this system would have made no difference to this years results – Griff drove the socks off and around the competition in class 4, smashing all class records ……. Congratulations Andrew ! But it would have also brought Brodies performance to the top of the leaders table .

 

 

Regards

 

Dave

 

 

[david nelson]

This is intreating?

 

My 1st thoughts are if its going to be a wet day whats the point in going out. the score is likley to be dropped. last year it was dry most places, the year before was a mix of wet and dry.

 

If you can only do 7 events and 3 are wet and lets say you are the fastest in class on all events you should be winning your class. but if someone does 7 dry events and your not there, their overall points could be higher than yours.

 

does your system give to much of an advantage to dry weather?

 

David

[robmar]

Dave - all sounds fair, I did have some original reservations when you explained it to me a while back, around novices etc but I think they may be unfounded.. Couple of points for discussion

 

1. do we have an 'official' class record list anywhere, i have get an unoffical but I think accurate class 3 details here 🤔 I don't think it would be rocket science to do, and I am guessing that BB/Mark has a record of all events somewhere (most are online as well). Mark as I vounteered to do the scoring a while back, I am happy to sort this as well if you can supply details.

 

2. Maybe for new venues we should have a maximum of 20 points for the winner (or even 21.5), just thinking if run 1 is wet, and then run 2 is dry you may end up with every competitor getting 21.5

 

3. If there are changes in class regs, do all class records get reset 🤔 and then point#2 comes into play...

 

4. Maybe instead of a FTD award, whihc 99% of the time goes to class5 or 6 we could replace with a highest points score of the day, and truly rerwarding say a class 1 driver who broke the the class record by 2s. just a thought

 

5. Dave you clearly didn't see the agenda, otherwisew you would have turned up , as top of the list is banning welshman in 1.9K's 😬

 

rob

 

 

My MSN Space and Blog - Syndicate Using RSS

[robmar]

DaveN - is a valid point but I guess with the british weather it is all a bit down to chance

 

and I guess that was illustrated at Loton where only a few of us did the 2nd wet run....

 

for me if I turned up and it was wet I would still compete, if I ended up doing 7 events and 3 where wet and all the rest where dry I would be somewhat pissed, but hey thats life I guess 😬

 

I guess this does reward to some degree (and rightly) those competitors that support the championship and do more rounds than others, yes I understand not everyone can get time away to do them all (as I am sure I will find out this year)...

 

rob

 

 

My MSN Space and Blog - Syndicate Using RSS

[Jason Plato]

Rob - your point 4 is a good one and the max of 20.00 for new venues is also good .

 

I havent seen an agenda no .

 

Dave Nelson - I appreciate your concern, but the current system favours who is present for your stated 7 events and who got an entry even at some venues .

[david nelson]

Dave

 

In the dry i like the sound of your system. Yes it is always going to be difficult to get places at invited events and may be Curborough. either system has this problem.

 

What might be an idea is to have wet days keeping the current system and dry days with the new system.

 

Driving in the wet requires greater skill and the current system rewards this.

how would a wet day be declared? well it could be when its raining or been raining and the times are a % less than a class record?

 

David

[Jason Plato]

Driving in the wet requires greater skill and the current system rewards this

 

Dave - the current system gives points based on how quick 2nd place man is ..... first = 20.00+ time . It doesnt reward skill - just rewards how quick you were compared to who else turned up

 

The system I propose also rewards fast wet guys - the faster you are , the closer you are to the class record the more points you score .

 

 

Ohhh and I just thought - with regards to wet rounds scoring less points than dry rounds - and concerns that some may not be able to win the championship by doing just 7 rounds , 3 0f which were wet .

 

Tough - this system would encourage more competitors to more rounds

 

 

Edited by - Dave Jackson on 17 Nov 2005 11:17:29

[NoLimits]

Sounds OK but only as Dave N said for the dry.

 

Its not good enough to say tough for those who can only do the 7 rounds for whatever reason. This will push people away.

 

It certainly would me. Why make the effort to do the 7 😬 who thought of that number anyway. events to qualify when there are bound to be some wet ones when lets say I can only do 7 in a year where ever they are.

 

I'd be more inclined to do some L7C events and some local ones since I would not be in the hunt for the overall class or championship just due to the weather.

 

The championship would loose out.

 

But if we can somehow get around the weather then OK.

 

I'll think about it. There has to be a simple answer.

[david nelson]

Dave

 

just think we see it diffrently.

 

I am think about droping scores.

 

Wiscombe class 3 2004 FT 49.72

 

2005 Wet 49.72 + 20.00 = 69.72

FT 50.49 score 19.23

2nd 51.83 score 17.89

3rd 52.75 score 16.97

 

Curbourgh class 3 FT 59.57 + 20 = 79.57

2005 Dry

FT 59.58 score 19.99

2nd 59.68 score 19.89

3rd 60.51 score 19.06

 

I think my point is if its dry you are going to score higher than if its wet. Low scores will be dropped. We are then reliant on the weather.

 

It would be intresting to see if the overall positions in class 3 would have change this year ond what would have happened in 2004. I do not have the data to do this and excel and me seem to speak a diffent language..

 

 

David

[Grahame W]

As with all points systems there are usually a set of circumstances somewhere that means a particular result is not 'fair' If Ecclestone et al can't get it right in FI and continue to fiddle with the system then what hope do the rest of us have.

 

If the rain issue is a real one then could a 'rain factor' be conceived to cover that circumstance such as X% added to the bogey time.

 

As to dropped scores how many of the serious players plan to run the minimum number of events possible and would get caught out by not being able to drop a wet score?

 

As a newcomer I thought even the existing system was pretty good but there is some definite merit in this suggestion.

[Jason Plato]

But it could also be said that everyone will score lower if its wet 🤔. The only time this would be of concern is if it affected the class leaders in persuit of the championship -

 

question: if we are concerned how wet weather could affect potential to score points - then those who are concerned that they may score a few less points in the wet than the dry wouldthey not be the same drivers who would be battling for the championship or class championship ??

 

I believe they would be - and is it quite unlikely that these drivers would only be doing the minimum nunber of rounds if they were in serious contention ?

Dave

[Jason Plato]

sorry - a cross post with GrahameW .....

 

 

[david nelson]

 

 

"As to dropped scores how many of the serious players plan to run the minimum number of events possible and would get caught out by not being able to drop a wet score?"

 

I am not sure you would ever call me serious but if it had not been for my amazing wife letting me go to some of the events i am not sure if i would have even done 7. I do not know many wifes that would let you do off sprinting with 3 children under 4. Curbourgh 1 was when the youngest wast just a few weeks old.

 

David

 

[Jason Plato]

I just ahd a look at the results from the last 2 years - its safe to say that all the leading drivers in all classes dropped at least 2 scores during the season, many dropped between 3 & 5

 

as for your last post Dave - I realy dont think its a good idea to factor in how good a drivers wife is or how many children you have 😬 Maybe if you spent more time in the garage or on track you wouldnt be in this situation *wink*

[robmar]

Dave - how has weather affected you rother series 🤔

[Jason Plato]

swings and roundabouts Rob

 

The leading contenders all do far more than the minimum rounds,the wet makes little difference in the small hatch classes , the 4WD classes tend to score better in the wet than me , but I score better than the big single seaters. Then we all drop score the wet rounds . But this year was good - I think I only did 3 wet events from the 24 events all year

 

But it does make the competition closer and you are less likely to get a runaway leader on 21.5 max all the way as he would have to beat the class records all the way ........... for more than 2 years on the trot !

[Silver 21]

Playing devils advocate now I've stepped down I can see the merit in DJ's suggestion although I do think it needs to be thought out clearly.

 

I think the deep down thing DJ is trying to avoid is people winning the championship by just turning up and scoring points, to a certain extent regardless of how many are in the class.

 

The suggestion is a fairer system as its based on performance of the driver against established records, however with a championship of say 12 rounds with 7 scoring its not appropriate to say tough if its wet, as one competitor could do 5 rounds were it rains, the other could do a different 5 rounds were it is dry. The new system would penalise the driver that attended the events were it rained even though he could have won his class. Therefore a championship could be won based on the weather, hardly fair.

 

The only way this sysytem would work is to set a bogey time for events when its wet, this is decided on the day at the event and its declared 'wet', if the weather changes throughout the day it refers back to normal.

 

Purely my thoughts

 

Graham

 

Lotus 7 Club General Secretary

 

[Silver 21]

Dave J

 

Cross over posts again, must type quicker

 

You are talking about the overal champion in a championship made up of different types of car which is different to ours where the only difference apart from the driver is the output of the engine

 

Graham

 

Lotus 7 Club General Secretary

 

[robmar]

for venues where it has been wet in the past we could use the bogey for the best class time then....

 

or as think the Troublemaker suggested earlier, if declared wet then we revert to that scoring system

 

or we could add someort of multiplier (scientifically worked out 😬) for wet events

 

might get a bit confusing tho

[Jason Plato]

yes thats right Graham - hence swings and roundabouts ........ but I realy believe in our championship it will have the effect of making things even closer on points right to the last round.

 

my deep down aim of my proposal is thus

 

a) prevent 21.5 max all season

b) remove the effect that only 3 runners in class has and allow everyone the chance to win overall

c) remove the potential of "joe bloggs isnt at Aintree - I can score a max points "

d) benchmark everyone and the overall speed champion and class champions against the best ever times

e)Make the overall champion and class champion the person who realy has driven the hardest, and offered the most commitment - this may also be read as in rounds attended .

 

 

 

 

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South Wales AO

[Jason Plato]

maybe something for the wet ???

 

bogey time plus 10% , max score = 20.50

 

Mark D would declare a "wet" event .

 

🤔

[Manxseven]

I wouldn't get into trying to have points system that takes into account the weather, it's the UK and it rains alot (especially at Wiscombe 😬), live with it.

 

If you are serious about being your overall Class champion and/or becoming overall champion, then you will be planning on doing all the 12 rounds anyway, so if 2/3 are wet it's not a problem. You cannot expect to be a overall class winner/champion by just doing 7 or 8 rounds and hoping they are all dry and you have no car problems.

 

I can only afford to do 5 to 6 events per year, so I don't expect to win any championship, but I will have 5/6 individual events which I will enjoy/have great fun and drive to the best of my ability.

 

 

 

 

 

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[Mike Bees]

On the whole I think this is a better basis for scoring than a fixed-points system. A number of other championships run this system. The whole essence of speed events is that you are competing mostly against the clock. It's the best way of measuring every individuals performance irrespective of who and how many competitors turn up in each class. Of course you could still get classes where there are 'soft' records, but the L7C champs has become so competitive in the last 2 years that the leading cars in every class are damned well driven.

 

But, I do think there is a problem with wet events. If the guys fighting for the championship tend to discard enough results for the wet ones not to matter, then wet-weather skills get discarded along with those results. OTOH I don't think adding a % to the bogey time for a declared 'wet weather' event works because it's quite possible that *some* people will get a dry run and hence score a huge bonus. FWIW I think it would be better to revert to the 20pts system if the track isn't completely dry for one whole timed run, or something. Needless to say this decision cannot be taken by a competitor for fear of there being something of a conflict of interest... Ideally the CoC should be briefed and charged with making the decision.

 

You could compromise and score each class on the existing 20pts basis but score the overall championship on a bogey-time basis, but that would be complicated to score and might (though unlikely) end up with the overall champion not being a class winner.

 

Mike

[Mattj]

Instead of a wet/dry bogey adjustment, could you have a "how fast the day was in general" figure that is added to all points. How much is added to everyone's points is calculated by:

 

=Average of ALL l7c competitor best times posted during the day of the event (general performance of the day)

 

*divided by*

 

Average of all class records at the venue

 

If the 'all competitor avg' is higher i.e. when its wet and times are greater, then the points bonus everyone gets is higher. The limitation is that the less competitors attend, the more each competitor is working against themselves, as they have more influence in decreasing the overall average time by performing better. Now im confused! 😬 It was just an idea anyhow!

[Jason Plato]

Now im confused! It was just an idea anyhow

 

 

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