Jason Plato Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 During testing I used a big capillary guage so the pressure drop / reaction time was pretty much instant and accurate . C7 TOP Powered by Hellier Performance 😬 South Wales AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red dave Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 Gentlemen, the tests carried out on my brandnew built, by my own fair hands paid for by my wifes hard earnt cash, 7, were not in vien.I would't have volenteered my pride and joy, as yours is to you I am sure.But cost is always an issue especialy after a newly purchased car. the gauge used as stated before was very responsive and seemily very accurate it was fitted to the oil filter plate alongside the standard dash gague, no pressure was lost after fitting the baffle compared to before the fitting of it where we constantly lost pressure.. the dash one never showed any movement before or after as we know they are not the best. I can garentee I saw this with my own eyes to my own car if anyone wants to know.We never lost pressure after the baffle was fitted but did before. Dave Jackson Sh 😳gged my car senseless (he's a fair driver of a 7 ❗) with me in it and I was looking also at the gague and the state of my tyres, we managed to fuel starve the car but loose no oil pressure on the rapid circuits. I don't know if anyone has managed to do this, we did this about 5 times.this shows how hard we were hammering it,I drive O.K. but he really did put alot into the test as I could only have got half as much and probably alot of others could have only managed this much. But we did't loose pressure after the baffle was fitted ❗ ❗ ❗ My summary, it is £150 compared to £1700 (dry sump) no chance of clearing that with the limiter. Don't let DJ drive your car if it is not fitted and you do like I do lots of trackdays and start sprints this year, then the engines gone anyway ❗ If my engine packs up after the end of this season or during I'll let you all know what caused it. if it does't then was this alternative an option we wish we had popped in, it certainly will help slow an inevitable prosess Quite simple really no technical jargon from my end just how it was as I saw it,we did't loose oil pressure that thing everyone pipes on about at every track and race meet I have ever been to. hope this can help some people. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 I don't think anyone is really doubting the results of your combined test - DJ would have to be daft to post something he couldn't back up - the concern seems to be how this translates away from the roundabout and onto the track (especially with left-handers, by the sounds of it). Project Scope-Creep is underway... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbutnotslow Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Mmm, I think that we should not lose sight of the fact that this is an aide and I suspect was never intended as an alternative to a dry sump. If you want complete peace of mind, stump up the £1700 or so that a dry sump will cost. OK some may feel that it may seem expensive "for what it is" but as earlier posts have said if it was that obvious why had someone not made it before? Jason at Hellier took up the baton and produced one. Good on him. The development time must have been considerable and that has to be paid for and lets face as he is in business he does hope to make a profit! I think that Hellier would have needed a sizable R&D budget in order to produce extensive research, which would then have had to be funded from sales. I know someone who is a management skills trainer and can charge between £750 to £1.000 per day. Now that seems a lot for one day but it can take 10 days to write the material and the supporting handouts. Suddenly the £1k divided by 10 doesn’t sound so much. Same thing here I think. I believe that the tests have been carried out in good faith and in the only controlled way that is currently available. Sure a data logger will give you more exact comparative information but just how many tracks should the tests be done on not to mention different K varients and states of tune? Come on. is £160 not £1,600. Heck I paid more than that for my aero screen! Certainly it will give me a little more confidence whilst pushing hard on track and I will fit mine with a smile once Oily finishes fettling my engine. Grant Black and stone chip and currently not going ☹️ but waiting to me made better courtesy of Dr. Dave Andrews. Not long now hopefully?! here Edited by - oldbutnotslow on 30 Mar 2005 08:50:34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Rimmer Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 I can't help thinking Willfly has missed the point. Its all very well having a go at Helliers product and its rollout, but fundamentally its correcting a Caterham major screw up. I speak from experience at having the very amateurish foam design break up (according to Caterham that was a direct result of not using Comma oil.........yeah right). The first lasted 13,000 miles no problem, the second approx 800 miles before blocking the pick up and destroying a bearing. If Caterham fitted dry sumps as std this wouldn't be an issue. They don't even fit apollos as standard, which for me starts to lean towards redress under "fitness for purpose" in the Sale of Goods Act. So the owner then has the choice of a £160 potential fix (surely even if its not perfect you avoid the annoying need for frequent £40 foam replacements) or £1200 + or whatever on a retrofit dry sump installation. I'm happy to be a Hellier "tester" as I struggle to see how it can be worse than my experiences testing the Caterham version, and I have a sneaky feeling it will work just fine. For anyone who hasn't yet binned their foam, start saving for the rebuild, the clock is ticking ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 *confused* according to Caterham that was a direct result of not using Comma oil.........yeah right). My last one completely dissolved in less than 400 miles for almost certainly the same reason - using cheap mineral oil. It's not a £160 fix - it's £182.13 (delivered). Project Scope-Creep is underway... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Rimmer Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 thats very clever foam then, distinguishing between the various types of oil and picking only Comma as acceptable. I'm no engineer but I would take some convincing... (ps mine was Castrol RS, but if it had been cheap mineral oil I would still have been annoyed as no trackdays or similar had been involved, just road driving) Thanks for the price correction, I must have convinced myself it was cheaper !! and I don't disagree that it looks expensive in its little brown cardboard box, but so was the very competent work that Blink Motorsport had to do to fix my car. I've not got the time to make a home made copy for the cost of materials. Everyone has the choice right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Gillet Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 I second Mathew . Very happy to have been able to get rid of the foam. I experienced the same foam dissolution. Well, in my case, it just melted down. The baffle seems perfect on the Yvelines roads. Will more seriously test the Hellier baffle on the Bugatti track 24/25 of April. Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanB Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 Re. prices - IIRC Dave negotiated a reduction for the first few (10?) which came in at 160 incl. VAT and delivery. "List" is higher? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 😬 you have £20,000 toys and you are discussing £22 price difference 😬 😬 😬 😬 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 I might have spent £20k, but the car isn't worth that.... ☹️ And given the amount I've bled over PSC, £22 is important these days! Project Scope-Creep is underway... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmalcol1 Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 Anyone been able to get hold of Jason at Hellier Performance this week? I have called him several times and emailed him! I am trying to find out the delivered cost of the Hellier Baffle System for 'K' series. Any ideas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 Jason is currently in Greece running a couple of MGZR rally cars (as in, engineering them) - I believe he is back after the weekend. Big update! here 80,000miles in 3 years plus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted April 8, 2005 Leadership Team Share Posted April 8, 2005 I haven't read all this thread and I certainly don't want to get sucked into a pointless debate about the merits or otherwise of the Hellier baffle - if you think it'll work then buy one, if not then keep quiet - it's the way things work in a civilised society. I'll contribute though because I believe there's an additional factor that may aid the Hellier system further. The baffle theory is very simple (DJ I'm sure will support me on this one..) in that the intended improvement is nothing more than to put the oil in the place you want it to be. This effectively falls into 2 areas - firstly to supply the required lubrication points (bearings etc) with enough oil, ie. at at least a minimum pressure, and secondly (without which point 1 cannot be maintained) to ensure that the source of the oil (at the pickup pipe) is maintained. The baffle should aid point 2, and in doing so cannot reduce oil pressure in any way whatsoever. However, making an adjustment to the oil pressure can make the baffle even more effective. Over the last 18 months I've run a wet sump system, but I've played around with the oil pressure by adjusting the spring rate in the pressure relief valve by using a series of shims. It's well documented that hot operational pressure in the K can vary from a little over 3 bar to in excess of 4 bar. I intially decided that running at 4 bar would be better for the longevity of the engine. To do so i carefully shimmed the pressure relief valve to achieve the desired pressure. I gave the setup a substantial test on the road and the track, suffering the usual starvation problems and a tendency to dump plenty into the catch tank if pushing on really hard. Approx 1 litre dumped after a day at Anglesey. I then spent some time looking at the theory of the whole oil system, and concluded that irrespective of the depth of the sump, the whole system needs to be in balance - pressure, bleed past at the relief valve, depth at the pickup, and the ability for gravity to return oil to the start of the system (sump). An extremely shallow sump design simply exagerates the problem. As DJ states teh ability to return to the bottom is no different in a D/S application than a wet one. My conclusion from the theory was that in order to prevent starvation, I needed to either get more oil back to the sump, or keep more there in the first place. To this end I've backed the pressure down to 3.5 bar hot, which equates to around 3.25 bar if hammering on the track. And guess what - the starvation (and subsequent aeration) has been reduced dramatically. My pressure gauge is the old VDO version which has much less damping than the later ones, and it's remained far steadier. A repeat test at Anglesey resulted in much steadier pressure and zero oil in the catch tank - and that's with the traditional foam! What Dave and Hellier have achieved is to enable the little oil we have at the bottom to be in the most beneficial place. Having experimented with the pressure relief valve I have also made an improvement to the wet sump setup. Utopia will be to combine all the possible improvements you can make to get the oil system balanced for the particular engine you have. There's no reason to think about your oil system any differently than the whole reason for setting up the car on a rolling road - every engine differs. Ditch the foam - it's a half baked attempt at improving a too-shallow sump for road use (designed for a 1400 anyway). Fit a baffle. Adjust the pressure to balance the system. Finally look towards plenty of track time and long life of the engine Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom7 Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 Stu, thats remarkably well written for this time of night tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted April 9, 2005 Leadership Team Share Posted April 9, 2005 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nifty Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 It's also a remarkable "I certainly don't want to get sucked into a pointless debate about the merits or otherwise of the Hellier baffle" since that's exactly what he's gone on to do. ...if you think it'll work then buy one, if not then keep quiet - it's the way things work in a civilised society.What a load of tosh Stu. A civilised society conducts reasoned debates which is what we have here. Keep off the straight and narrow 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david nelson Posted April 9, 2005 Author Share Posted April 9, 2005 Stu Intreasting, How do you balance/ajust the oil pressure? I have already fitted the baffle but think I need to get a gauge that tells me what my oil pressure is for real. The CC one is so poor, every time you change the sender unit it give you a compleatly diffrent reading. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Woods Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 a tendency to dump plenty into the catch tank if pushing on really hardStu, can you elaborate on this a bit ? AFAIK my K-series doesnt have a catch tank (std wet-sump) but i'm curious about what causes oil to go into the tank - is it hard cornering or something else ? Nick Red and Black 1.6K supersport visit Carrotland.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted April 9, 2005 Leadership Team Share Posted April 9, 2005 If you haven't got a catch tank then you'll be venting into the plenum - standard Rover setup - you won't actually know where the oils going except that you loose a little. I'm running TBs therefore fitted a catch tank. I found that as the oil became aerated I was suffering greater windage, and then dumping more into the catch tank, even with an Apollo. Obvioulsy the source of the aeration is the sucking of air at the pickup, and I theorised that oil with air in it would take up a greater volume than oil without, hence the increasing windage. Over a series of track days I observed that the oil was controllable for the first few sessions of the day, but gradually (as it became aerated I believe) was just uncontrollable, with more and more starvation at the pickup. It doesn't take long to get air into the oil but it does take a lot longer to get it out My theory went that if I had oil starvation at the pickup, and in turn there was oil being retained higher up, how did I combat it. Bear in mind this is all "back-of-an-envelope" stuff I then looked at the action of the oil pump. At tick-over the car sits around 2 bar. As revs increase the pressure increases until at around 4000 revs it reaches 4 bar, but doesn't go any higher as the revs increase further. This leads me to believe that at 4 bar the oil is now bleeding passed the pressure relief valve, ie. the valve is set for 4 bar. The pressure relief valve is an area of the oil system that has been little discussed therefore I decided to experiment. By using different springs from a number of pumps I have around and small brass washers as shims, I found that I could control the maximum pressure attained as revs increased. An educated guess then suggested that if the pressure (for example at 6000rpm) was now lower, then the oil being pumped round the system was lower, hence more left in the sump and less stuck at the top end. This doesn't reduce the movement of the oil in the sump like the baffle is designed to do, but it does enable there to be more oil there more of the time. Shove less to the top and more remains at the bottom. Less pressure (in a controlled manner) is definately preferable to increased starvation because the oils in the wrong place, then leading to more air being supplied to the bearings and rings! I now run around 3.5 - 3.75 bar hot, and the difference is incredible. Yes I still get some drop in pressure on long hard right handers when pushing it, but the pressure picks up far quicker. How much activity you'd be able to notice on a later (heavily damped) Caterham oil pressure gauge I'm not sure, but the damping in the VDO ones is minimal. My final test was Mav's track day at Anglesey last September - I'm sure others will agree that I wasn't hanging around 😬 - usual drop of pressure on right handers but absolutely consistent through the day. No oil added during the day, and next to nothing in the catch tank. Prior to starting on my experiments it was suggested (by a knowledgeable engine builder) that an absolute minimum operating pressure should be approx 3.0 - 3.5 bar therefore I wouldn't want to go any lower. This is experimentation on one engine therefore is hardly enough work to set a president, but I feel that a drop in pressure helps a little when fitted with such a shallow sump. Fitting a baffle in place of the foam may further make improvements - there's certainly not enough oil in the system to allow an amount to be contained in the foam . Another area that has to be worth looking at is to replace the standard windage plate with the QED version that has "fingers" that run up the inner wall of the block. This won't fit with the wet sump pick-up without modification, but in use is intended to allow faster return of the oil to the sump - I'm told the rotation of the crank causes air movement that inhibits the return down one side. There's a spec for pressure release valve spring length in the Rover build manual - they sometimes get a little shorter with age and can be shimmed with copper or brass washers if you want it longer. It's also possible to change without dropping the oil My engine experience like most is limited, and the likes of Dave J have probably forgotten more about the K than I will ever know, but I am prepared to experiment. In this instance it paid off, and may just be one small additional factor that can help. Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted April 9, 2005 Leadership Team Share Posted April 9, 2005 And I'm supposed to be decorating 😳 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenDriver Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 I looked at the pictures of the baffle and the price etc. If you look at just the materials cost then £160 is a fair old wodge. However, if any of you guys have tried to manufacture components from scratch then you'll know it can take a surprising amount of time even for something as simple as the baffle. This is never going to be a volume product and so you are not going to get volume pricing. I'm not saying it's cheap. It's just that getting to a baffle that works would take a wee while and this cost has to be reimbursed from somewhere. At £160 I hesitated about flashing the cash. After a few deep breathsI just might... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Woods Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 If you haven't got a catch tank then you'll be venting into the plenum - standard Rover setup - you won't actually know where the oils going except that you loose a little.How difficult is it to fit a catch tank to a standard Rover 'wet sump with plenum' setup ? Mine uses some oil, about 1000 miles / litre when driven hard but less when driven steadily, and I've been told it puffs a little out on the overrun. I'd like to find out how much of that is going out of the breather and into the inlet (theres no smoke when I start it up) Nick Red and Black 1.6K supersport visit Carrotland.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 Super-easy if you're an aeroscreen boy - just reroute the breathers to the (now redundant) washer bottle and block off the holes in the plenum... Project Scope-Creep is underway... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Woods Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 Hi Myles. Unfortunately I'm a wimpscreen boy so I cant do that. Is it ok to just route the breather pipes to some sort of a bottle and then plug the hole in the plenum ? I thought the cam cover had to be sealed for some reason apart from not allowing oil fumes into the atmosphere, or have I misunderstood something Nick Red and Black 1.6K supersport visit Carrotland.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now