Violet Elizabeth Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 For a carbed engine, maybe you are right. But EFI needs more changes. Tank mods, filler cap, pump etc. It all adds up. My GSXR exhuast is in a completely different position to the crossflow one, the hole would have been huge. If you don't care what you car looks like, then fair enough. But I do. The back end remains mainly unchanged as there is less torque to break stuff Not quite sure how you come to this conclusion of less torque. The birth of the Gixxerham : pics here drivel here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Bill Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 TBO I'm not sure either 😬 And I agree that you might want a spangly car and this costs wedge. But, I stand by the fact that it needn't cost the earth to do this engine swap. If you compare it to the car engine that you would have to use to get this kind of performance, then it is difficult to argue against 'em... BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RESOLVIWOLF Posted December 9, 2004 Author Share Posted December 9, 2004 nothing wrong with the duranail, more than happy but i find the busa/low weight thing interesting. I guess if i was starting again or wanted a change in a few years time then more power wouldnt necessarily interest me but a much lighter, completely different feeling car would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Elizabeth Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Oh, absolutely, you don't have to spend £10k, but I not think you could do it for £5k either, at least not 'Busa. This isn't based upon speculation, this is based upon the parts list for installing the 'Busa baby brother. By the time you add in the costs for making it moderately quiet, and perhaps a bit safer, then you But we are in total agreement on the "bangs per buck". The total engine install (with a few spangles) will be less than an uninstalled Duratec from Raceline. The birth of the Gixxerham : pics here drivel here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross_H Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 have thought about converting my blackbird several times, but i think total cost would be about 6k, and with the demise of bbms, i dont know who would do it now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanB Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Hyabusa engines are fairly reliable once you fix the weak spots (chain tensioner recalled twice by Suzuki, oil pump tends to be a bit chocolate as does the starter motor gears) and like most big bike engines it needs dry sumping. If anything I'd say that a Blackbird engine is less trouble (IF IT'S DRY SUMPED). The key to bike engines is keeping good oil pressure - if you can make sure that the OP's good, then they're pretty bullet-proof. However, getting more power out of one is not easy. Getting more power out of most car engines is easy because they're in such a mild state of tune already. Bike engines like the 'busas and 'birds are already very highly tuned. To get up to 200bhp is going to require a big bore conversion, cams and a ported head - around £2k-£3k fitted. Given that the engine only costs £2.5k-£3k, that's a disproportionately high figure for only a few ponies. Why aren't they seen around more? Well, they are. There are plenty of Westies, Furies, Rushes etc. out there with 'busa engines. There are very few in Caterhams because by and large (Noger and Adam being honourable exceptions) Caterham owners tend to stick with whatever engines Caterham use rather than sticking in whatever they fancy. The 'busa is an extremely popular engine in other vehicles, which goes some way to explaining the relatively high prices. A £5k conversion would be just about possible in parts alone, but obviously if you get someone else to do the conversion you're going to have to add labour to that. A top end budget of £10k wouldn't be unreasonable IMHO. Why aren't V-twins used? Well, they are sometimes - Stuart Taylor have done at least a couple of Honda V-twin cars including one racer. They also use the PanEuro ST1100 V4 in some cars (my brother's put on in a Stuart Taylor Locost). But the bottom line is that they don't produce the power. The V-twins produce about 120bhp max - a decent inline 4 like an R1 or a GSXR1000 is producing at least 150bhp. The power delivery of the twins is different - a chap called Ian Fletcher drives a homemade special in the 750MC RGB series with a V-twin in it and by all accounts he gets pretty good drive out of the corners. However, he's down on power on the straights. If you want bang per buck, a V-Twin doesn't make sense. And if you want torque, buy a tractor. Or a watermill. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwyatt Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 To answer the original questions, from the results of the research I did before buying my Busa Furynail to replace my caternail (plus the ongoing adivce of a few BEC-mad friends, one with a Busa he's turbocharging!): Busa's seem to be regarded as the most reliable engines for BEC use, they have quite large transmission components and seem to even take tuning/supercharging/turbocharging better than many car engines. Dan is a fan of Blackbird's so I won't slag them off, but let's just say Busa's seen to suffer less from oil surge issues than many bike engines when dry sumped, some lack lubrication near the main bearings in a car installation where cornering forces are different (engine stays upright). Legend has it that blades and R1's don't really need dry sumping, but the bigger engined (bird's, busas) usually are - whether this is to protect the higher cost, or because they need it, I don't know. Busa's also (according to folklore again) tend to produce at least the stated bhp, some bike engines are not quite so realistically quoted by the manufacturer, or are quoted with theoretical "ram air" effects. One reason they are so rare is the cost - Suzuki will not sell them off of the bike, and of course they have become popular as Radical use them heavily. The bikes were expensive and not a volume seller, so not many engines are available. Engines are usually £2-2.5k+ and dry sumps are £1500 or so by the time you have all the hoses, then ideally you need a power commander or similar device so you can re-map for the non-standard exhaust. Compare this to the £800 a blade costs and the £1000 or less an R1 engine costs and you can see why they are so popular. Especially as a caterfield with blade engine will be pretty much R300 quick around a track, a friend's blade locost was quicker than my RS-B Caterham and I was on the pace in RS-B and he's never raced! As to lap times, the R400 challenge is mega competitive compared to mot club motorsport, and uses well-developed cars on slick tyres with stacks of testing. You are not really comparing like for like if comparing to a Busa or Bird RGB car or similar, which is someone's pride and joy on road legal tyres, not a professional's company car. Performance-wise, my Busa Fury pulled as you changed from 5th to 6th better than my Caterham Roadsports B car pulled changing from first to second. It really was that quick! I always wanted a Busa Caterham but couldn't afford it, in an ideal world I'd love one. PS very well looked after engine for sale in the "for sale" section!! Edited by - jwyatt on 9 Dec 2004 14:45:03 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanB Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 I agree with what James has said, and yes, I do like the 'bird engine, but I don't entirely follow the surge/dry sump bit. A dry sumped engine of whatever nature, if the dry sump system is any good and doesn't break, will not suffer surge. If, and it's a big if, a proper DS system is in place I don't think there's really very much between the bike engines out there in terms of reliability. It's when you don't dry sump them and take a winger on whether or not it'll hold together that things can get nasty - and I know, I've blown up 2 bird engines now. Given the empirical testing of RGB racing it seems that the 'busa, 'bird, ZX12R, and GSXR1000 engines need dry sumping. Fireblade, ZX9R and R1s don't. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iguana Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 ref the V twins, well other than lower power than 4s the torque thing is a bit overstated, a big 4 not only spanks most twins on power but also on torque. i.e '98 916 99bhp @9300 59LBft @ 7000 '98 R1 131bhp @ 9900 73LBft @ 7300 (Bike mag) Dont forget when foggy won his champs the 4s were 750, now 1L 4s race against the 1L twins, the twins are mainly out classed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LancasterBob Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Whats the collective's view on triples then; none of the packaging problems associated with twins, more torques than 4's. Never seen one in a road-going car, although seen a few hill-climbers running them. Rob Fishy 1400 Supersport, 75% complete, complete with C3 in the passenger seat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanB Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 The Triumph 955i triple is rather nice. A friend of mine's got one on a Lotus 11 replica. Decent power and sounds great. Very easy to map as well even on the standard ECU. The trouble is, there's very few out there so you'd be on your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrypike Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 as iguana has pointed out V-twins may make more torque at lower rpm than in line 4's but are nowhere near in peak power/torque apart from the height issue (plus airbox on top) only motoguzzi would give longitudinal output shaft with its transverse V-twin and that doesn't make a bike move too fast (and won't last if you try to make it faster) plenty of power is available from the 'busa, gearbox is better than blackbird but bike tuningN/A is expensive-really big power is from swedish turbo drag bikes and probably not reliable for circuit racing await flak from Mk1 le mans rider 😬 jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LancasterBob Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Dan, Your mates 11 replica sounds interesting; any info online anywhere? Is it dry sumped, and has he had any probs with it going into a car application? The 955i engine is about to go to 1050 guise, but as you rightly pointed out in both forms it will be pretty rare due to numbers on the road and the numbers crashed to give available engines. Could be a good alternative as availability makes the price of the main contenders (blade/bird/busa) rise? Cheers, Rob Fishy 1400 Supersport, 75% complete, complete with C3 in the passenger seat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bare Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 You guys.. Super7cars,.absolutely perfectly with a V competently engineered Reverse Box.. No Bodges there! It drives beautifully :-) No issues anywhere, adequate torque, Moto fast shifting (Power available :-) Remember a 'Busa engine/box combo weigh 61 Kilos.. wet. For the SAME price as an R400.. Just 'ain't made in England' is prolly the sticking point :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bare Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Fat Fingers.. sorry .. .. Super7cars.com Makes and sells a Huyabusa 7 with Caterham's official approval.. these are Brand New Cars. Prolly better assembled than yr typical Cat, if truth be told.. (Missing part of my note :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_m Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Bare, are you sure about that weight ? 61Kg wet ? That's a lot lower than I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Elizabeth Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Ain't no way it weighs 61kg, the GSXR1000 weighs more than that ! The birth of the Gixxerham : pics here drivel here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_m Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 The figure I was going on was 92Kg wet including injection etc. Could be wrong though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Elizabeth Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 80kg dry has been quoted, so 92 "all in" would seem fair. Still very light though ! The birth of the Gixxerham : pics here drivel here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrino Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 This guy (Bare) is just so misinformed about engine weights! I remember some of the crap he was churning out about the 4A-GE on the Westy forum. Lobbying Caterham for a new badge.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrblondie Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 i weighed my busa engine at the weekend...complete engine minus oil and coolant extra and it went apprx 75 kgs on the bathroom scales 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver 21 Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Slightly O/T but as a few of you know I'm also doing a 'Bird' conversion at the moment, rerasons for going to this rather than the busa were mainly cost related. Busa's go for £2.5 -£3K wheras you can pick a Blackbird up for less than £1500, if it goes POP its a cheaper fix and the power can be made similar. With regards to budget for a changeover I'm looking at between £5 -£6K for my conversion including Mychron dash, dry sump, reverse box, new CWP, widetrack etc but it would be very easy to spend nearer £8k without any difficulty. I'm doing all the work myself (when I find the time) Graham Competition Secretary 2005 Speed Championship - 12 Events and Growing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irrelevant Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 BB: How's your conversion going? No longer after a 3.14 diff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver 21 Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Adam Very slowly, unfortunately work (which is helping to pay for all of this) is a bit busy at the moment so I can already see me missing the first few events ☹️ ☹️. We presume you are planning to play in Class 6 next year? Graham Competition Secretary 2005 Speed Championship - 12 Events and Growing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanB Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Rob, It's a car which used to be called a Triton Challenger, now being marketed by GTS tuning. http://www.gtscougar.freeserve.co.uk/challenger.htm Don't think there were any problems fitting the 955i engine, it was the factory demonstrator so the Triumph engine mounts are off the shelf AFAIK. Don't think it's dry sumped. The owner's name is Simon Neill - if you want more info, try the Yahoo Groups 'bike-engined-cars' list - the source of all BEC knowledge! Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now