david nelson Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 I have a 1.8 supersport CC offer 160bhp conversion at £2295 inc vat consists of inlet ports polished, new ECU, roller barrels with R500 injection& fuel rail system, new engine breather fitted. (lets not forget the blue cam cover) or DVA K03 - 160BHP kit at £1925 Similar to the 145BHP kit but including work to your cylinder head to improve volumetric efficiency. Gives large gains in torque and much better drivability. Kit comes ready mapped but the ECU is entirely user programmable. Head retains standard valve sizes and is on an exchange basis. Comprises Pair Piper fast-road cams Emerald 32bit M3DK ECU Porting work to your cylinder head Appropriate oil seals, sealants etc. Heavy duty head gasket, head bolts and manifold gaskets Price £1400 Fitting above kit to Caterham seven - £350 Verniers for above kit - £175 (includes fitting and setting cam timing) Total £1925 or K04 - 170BHP kit AKA 'Emerald kit' £1935 Originally developed by Dave Walker at Emerald. Gives excellent power increase across the range and much improved drivability and throttle response comprising Jenvey DTH throttle bodies with composite trumpets and fuel rail mountings, Pair Piper fast road cams, Emerald M3DK ECU with suitable map and all gaskets and oil seals necessary to fit Above kit £1510 Fitting of above kit to Caterham Se7en £350 Verniers for above kit - £175 (includes fitting and setting cam timing) any advice please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinwhitcher Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 umm......DVA!!! Better if you want to further upgrade later on! but if you want to part-ex with CC then i believe they wouldn't take it... I will be going for the DVA when i've saved a bit!! can't wait 😬 Martin MW 51 CAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 DVA every time. Worcs L7 club joint AO.//Membership No. 4379//Azure Blue SLR No. 0077//Se7ens List Tours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Tin Man Posted August 18, 2003 Area Representative Share Posted August 18, 2003 David I have just gone the DVA K05 kit It as made a huge difference to the car. 5000 RPM to 7500RPM in a flash & very good in slow traffic, infact beter than the old supersport. I am off to Emerald the get it mapped on the rolling road soon which should make it even better. The veriers allow for very accurate cam timing. Dave will tel you the the cam timing from Caterham is a long way out. I think that DVA Sevens will hold their price in the open market. The kit is a very neat installation & I went for the air box to keep the induction noise down. Give Dave a ring you will find him very friendly & helpful. All the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F355GTS Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 David You have mail Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 DVA every time. you get an upgradeable ECu. you don't waste money on polsiing the ports (either get them ported properly or don't bother) you don't waste money on RBTBs over normal TBs either, and the responsiveness and part throttle will be MILES better. get the K03 (which seems to be ported head but on the std plenum) and then add TBs at a later date as a relatively simple swap. HOOPY R706KGU Hoopylight R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 Nothing wrong with the CC conversion, and either DVA or CC will transform your std 1800 engine. The true differences in performance would be hard to feel in a back to back drive. I've done two CC based roller barrel conversions (inc on an EU3) and both have come out really well. You also will have the benefit of being able to resell your car in the future as "with an R300 engine"..... With R300's coming out at £25k a piece that will do lots for your cars resale value. 3rd party bits will make for a considerably lesser increase in value. In neither case was the porting or compression ratio modified from 1800SS spec. Both run great! The parts from Caterham cost £1700 which is very good value, and all the other often forgotten bits such as air filter, new injectors, new fuel reg etc. plus every nut & bolt to make it work. I do suggest the lightweight flywheel to accompany this conversion though.... Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM website See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david nelson Posted August 19, 2003 Author Share Posted August 19, 2003 Intreasting so far it is to go into a SL i beleave the compression ratio is 10.50.1 this would raise to 10.75:1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 the problem is the map - ir doesn't matter what bits are in the engine - if its not mapped properly then it won't run properly. An Emerald is a proven solution and they have been making owners happy since they appeared. Its also easy to fiddle with yourself. AFAIK Caterham have yet managed to map a K series properly... HOOPY R706KGU Hoopylight R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny. Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 I must put in a good word for CC on this one. They put a new map in my R400 a couple of months ago and car is fabulous from 1000 to 8000rpm with no flat spots at all. Kenny SLR400 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 David, A change of 0.25 on the compression ratio is insignificant. Hoopy, The mapping is fine if the car is set up properly. To many people take the default setting for the TPS as correct. It needs to be calibrated into the system with Easimap, not just bolted on! V Simple. Find me an R300 that runs like a dog and I'll prove it. An MBE 967 is just as easy to fit and there are plenty of people out there who understand the Easimap application which by its onwn nature is very intuitive. Your statement "AFAIK Caterham have yet managed to map a K series properly..." is a clever play on words as all the ampping is done by Minister, not Caterham. Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM website See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luddites7 Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 I have had the K04 DVA on a Std 1600K and its is excellent - have to admit I have heard varying stories on CC workmanship. Dave takes a great deal of time to make sure everything is just right - doesnt seemed to cut corners - I am a very satisfied customer. The power and torque increase is very noticable 😬 Also worth helping dave out as a learnt a lot about the car in the process. Just need the gearbox to match the engine now jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Arnie - if its not set up correctly because of a trivial thing it doesn't alter the fact that it doesn't run right. And if its so easy to solve why don't Caterham tell you in the usuer manual and check it at the PBC 🤔 Its not a play on words at all. I've not played with the MBE software, I'm not complaining about the ECU. But the number of reports of dreadful response, part throttle and other mapping issues is impossible to ignore. Whoever is responsible for getting cars, as they reach the customers, to be sorted out has been failing miserably. Maybe its sorted now - buts its taken them FAR too long. Kenny - you're putting in a good word for Caterham (or Minister - to keep FA happy...) when they've got the map to a decent state 12 months after it reached production. MY engine was properly mapped 2 days after it first turned over after spending a few hours at emerald. Are Caterham really deserving of any praise 🤔 HOOPY R706KGU Hoopylight R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny. Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Dear Hoopy.I'm not trying to keep anyone happy, it's just that if a good job is done by somebody I'll mention it, after all we moan when things are not right so a bit of praise when things get sorted only seems fair Kenny SLR400 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Kenny - point accepted. They had a problem, admitted it, and fixed it. That's good. Its just that they should have fixed it before putting the car on sale. HOOPY R706KGU Hoopylight R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny. Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Totally agree Kenny SLR400 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveP Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 I too must stick up for CC here also. I have an absolutely standard R300, engine wise and really can't understand people who say the map is wrong or Caterham don't know what they are doing, as mine runs as sweet as you like. Pulls hard from around 2000 revs through to the redline at 7000, no hesitation, no flat spot, it just goes. OK, I have relatively limited experience on K series engines, but I just tell it how I see and feel it. Other opinions on the Supersport R conversion are just as favourable Boils down to whether re-sale back to Caterham is important to you, and if you need future flexibility for upgrades. SteveP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 I'm only saying everybody should get an emerald as I've seen the reuslts whenever a caterham supplied ECU and map are replaced by an Emerald one. I'll admit that my experience with this on the R300/R400 is more limited but I've still only heard positive things. An example - the SLR owner who put in an Emerald that was mapped for a ported 1600 - he said it ran better than it EVER did on the bespoke Caterham supplied map. The 1800 SS user who gained the usual drivability improvment and 10-20 ft lbs ACROSS THE WHOLE REV RANGE The SLR owner who could barely drive the car over 2000m as it ran so badly - swapped in an Emerald and went from crawling at 5 mph and stuttering to blatting away with the best of them. With my 1600 SS I found I could pull away from rest in 3rd with an emerald, it was barely possible in 2nd before. The hesistation as you nail it onto a roundabout was gone and i spent the next month trying to learn not to leave black tyre marks whenever i pulled out from junctions. I accept that you find your R300 very quick - but an R300 is very quick compared to almost any other car in the world. But have you tried one thats performing to the peak of its potential - I suspect you're missing a fair bit... HOOPY R706KGU Hoopylight R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Hoopy, Time for some education. The TPS is the datum point for all fuel and ignition parameters in an engine management system which are derived from load sites. With an incorrectly setup TPS each of the symptoms you describe are quite likely. Now, many people build R300's and R400's themselves, and might not have a laptop, cable and copy of Easimap, and to me it seems a bit excessive for Caterham to have to supply this and the necessary training as part of the kit. Better take your car to Caterham. If Caterham are not resolving the problem, thats an entirely different matter. Its certainly not a product problem. Your statements like: "An example - the SLR owner who put in an Emerald that was mapped for a ported 1600 - he said it ran better than it EVER did on the bespoke Caterham supplied map." are at best rubbish. Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM website See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Your statements like: "An example - the SLR owner who put in an Emerald that was mapped for a ported 1600 - he said it ran better than it EVER did on the bespoke Caterham supplied map." are at best rubbish. no they're not. I was there at the time. I saw the huge grin on his face after getting back out of the car. I've sent him a mail to come and tell you first hand... You don't own a K, I do. I built my K, watched it being mapped have watched many others being mapped. I have seen, spoken too, been present many times when people have switched ECUs - EVER time they report VERY postive results. And I think more people have laptops than engine cranes - yet Caterham expect self-builders to buy/borrow/hire an engine crane. And since setting up the TPS is so easy (it is on an Emerald and you say it is on a VX) I think its not beyond the wit of the average caterham builder to set it up correctly. The cost of the cable and software shouldn't be so expensive as to prevent this. Emerald give both away free with every ECU they sell. And thanks for telling me what a TPS was - I thought it was a variety of cucumber.... HOOPY R706KGU Hoopylight R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dino ferrana Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Hoopy your car was set up on a rolling road I believe? The map is especially for your car with its individual tolerances. Neither Minister nor Caterham to my knowledge have a rolling road. If every car was set-up on one the price would go up surely. The map they use has to be a good average and has to comply with SVA regulations which the Emerald map does not have to cope with. Go with the Supersport R as it will make your car worth more and anyone will be happy to buy it. The number of people happy to buy a DVA converted car WILL be less. However respectable the tuner people will be put off buying a car second hand if it is not a manufacturer endorsed conversion. A DVA conversion like it or not will mean your car will be worth less. I also have it on good authority that the R300 spec engine has significantly over the quoted 160 bhp... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 But we've just had arnie blaming everything on the TPS setting - that will also effect emissions etc and doesn't need a rolling road. yes my car went on the road - but i don't think that spending a few hundred on an RR session is a problem if you're spending 20-40k on a car. In fact - I think that to ensure the car is running correctly you'd be mad not to... Arguing over which "160" bhp car makes more is always going to be pointless. However - I would LOVE to see a back to back test of the various options on the same road on the same day. Full plots would let us look at the shape of the curve as well - more important than the peak. And a quick test would let things like responsiveness etc have at least some comparison. HOOPY R706KGU Hoopylight R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Oh yes - forgot to reply to your good point about the car being "official". That's entirely true - but i think most of those looking at power upgrades are likely to keep their car for a VERY long time. so resale value doesn't matter much. Look at XF prices - noone cares if its an offical spec or not - they just want to know how good it is. In 10 years time when the whole range that caterham offer is Toyota (or whatever...) powered I don't think anybody will care if its a caterham upgrade or not. Its still worth pointing out whenever people ask the question though. HOOPY R706KGU Hoopylight R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 I accept that you find your R300 very quick - but an R300 is very quick compared to almost any other car in the world. But have you tried one thats performing to the peak of its potential - I suspect you're missing a fair bit... ...do you not think that is a teenie weenie bit patronising? Bit of an assumption on lap top ownership as well! Fact is that many people would not expect to have to get out a pile of cables, laptop, and complicated (to those who have never seen it/used it) program on a new car they have just bought from a manufacturer. The Caterham option works straight out of the box - accepting there may have been teething problems, and agreeing with you Hoopy thatthey should have perhaps sorted these out first. I have an Emerald on my shopping list, for sure, as I want to do other things with engine one day etc etc, but part of the cost will be having to get a laptop, or only tweek stuff whilst with someone else in the know. For now my Caterham/Rover ECU is fine - sure it can be improved, and that will be great, but accept the fact that many of these work very well - you imply all are cr*p don't you? - perhaps you don't, but the point is the Emerald option is just that - an option, an upgrade, an alternative etc, it is not a neccesity surely. FWIW I shall certainly be going the DVA route one day when £££ appear. I have met Dave, he is a great chap, very free with advice and willing to discuss options. I can, however, uderstand the fact that a CC upgrade would be a good option on a newer car, where the owner may wish to re-sell through CC. We will never sell ours, so that is not an issue, and I can hopefully do more of the work myself the DVA way, and learn more from Dave at the same time. IMO we see too many people on blatchat INSISTING that certain options/upgrades are correct - we see this particularly if someone dares to ask about a i) windscreen or ii) a heater. They can be made to think they are tw*ts if they so much as considor such things on a Caterham. They are all valid options - thats why all caterhams are different. People who ask such questions I suspect are asking for owners opinions on their experiences with such things, not to be told they are idiots if they go a certain way. ok - sorry - that last paragraph was a bit of a rant - I know what I mean!! New site! mycaterham.com here 50,000miles in 2 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KayTee Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Weellll ... If a manufacturer offers a 'plug&play' upgrade to his standard cars, it should, in my humble opinion, be done properly. Yes, that does include proper timing of the cams for example, and that also includes proper mapping of the ECU. Whether their own ECUs should be user-tweakeable or not is a different topic, but tweaking should not be nescessary to begin with. If o.t.o.h. the 'official' engine conversion leaves the engine lacking grunt and responsiveness while having been rather costly, and a 3rd party company all but uploads a new map and the engine all of a sudden behaves as it should have right after the conversion, then questioning the 'upgrade's' quality is fair game, in my opinion. Why don't they develop the maps for their upgrades properly? They're bulding racecars, after all, why don't they have a rolling road? If only for developing a 'standard' map for their 'standard' upgrades to 'standard' engines ? I know seveal backyard wrenchers who do have said rolling roads. Now, I don't own a K, and my car is *still* in bits, but I have heard so many stories of people who went the 'official' way, spent quite big amounts of money to see themselves facing a wall in a one-way street considering further upgrades, and then these 'final and official' upgrades didn't work to their full potential. *I* would be upset, and *I* would be looking for something more versatile, better developed and therefore better v.f.m. . J.m.n.s.h.o. Karsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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