O/T room tuning for hifi setup

[Sheds Moderator]

Sorry gentlemen, this is off topic but I know that a lot of us are into hifi. In fact I have yet to visit a blatchatter who doesn't have a Quad or an oldy but goody Thorens in the lounge.

 

Now that I have got the keys to my new place in Saumur, it has become clear that the French taste for hard surfaces makes for a rather difficult listening environment. My lounge is around 7mx3m with bare limestone walls and ceramic tiled floor. The speakers are floorstanding and fire down the length of the room. There are bookshelves down the sides with lots of air gaps and nice sound diffracting corners, but no curtains (external shutters) and a rug between the sofa and the speakers (I'm not that daft). It's still a bit hard and echoey though.

 

With the current vogue for laminate floors sb. else must have faced a similar prob, I know there are companies out there who do room tuning but I am looking for a DIY proposal, without making the place look like a hippy colony. Don't say "carpet the bxstard" (Julian).

 

S'pose I could always pop up to Bayeux for a bit of that there cloth they have hanging up in that room. It's a bit long but it would cut down and it would go well with the limestone and the elm beams.

[New Barbie]

I have a dedicated hi-fi/home cinema room and it has a slate floor so I've had similar issues to tighten the sound.

 

The rug is obvious and I have a good size and decent thickness rug in my room. On the walls I have a softer surface by design on one side and we are putting up a large canvas on the other. The advantage of an artist canvas is that it is mounted so it will move slightly and absorb sound.

 

Other tips I have:

 

The corners of the ceilings and floors should be softened with cushions as sound waves will travel to the extremes of the room. You can buy proper sound deadening triangles that fix to the ceiling but a cushion has the same property.

 

I've used a mirror held on the walls and the floor to see what particular spot I can see the speakers in. It's at this point that the direct sound reflection will occur worst for your listening position and provides a good pointer as to where to place a softer surface.

 

The other thing that makes the biggest difference I think is the degree of toe-in on the speakers. I used to be a staunch advocate of none at all but I now have a small degree on the front speakers and this provides a much broader stereo diamond.

 

Making sure the supports and the speakers are properly spiked helps. I also isolate components on the supports themselves. I use blue tack as well to prevent vibration between components and also between any speakers and their stands (in my case the rears are floor standers that I've actually raised on small stands and the centre speaker is also on a stand).

 

My room is about the same size as yours so it's probably not a million miles away in terms of solving the same issues. I just have one sofa set away from the rear wall and the rear wall is where I keep all the software so the surface is quite difuse. Directly behind the sofa at direct level with the listener I have my collection of baseball caps (I have loads of them) and I'm convinced they absorb any direct sound reflected from the front speakers back to the listening position.

 

 

[Sheds Moderator]

Thanks Count, it sounds like you have indeed gone through the same process. I’d forgotten the trick with the mirrors, so that should help with bookcase positioning, though they are already about right to scatter wall reflections. I didn’t know about the corner sound absorbers, but it makes sense because I have a friend who had a room which was unlistenable owing to a nasty echo from the top right corner. He solved it by moving...perhaps a cushion would have been easier.

 

I’m sure your collection of hats on the back wall goes a long way to attenuate reflected sound, in my experience any soft furnishing or fabric will work admirably, as will shelves full of paperbacks. Just as long as we don't descend to Peter Belt levels of counting pages in paperbacks (because they have to be equal on opposite sides of the room, of course) and placing pieces of opingo wood in opposite corners of the room to eliminate stray vibrations. You mean you don't?

 

Right, down to Ikea for some floor cushions. Might get some curtains too, but that means taking an interest in soft furnishings. Ugh.

 

[Meldrew]

Peter Belt...God help us.... 😬

[Bare]

Old equipment = Old Guys :-)

Could just buy a decent set of Headphones

Suggest speakers on Long wall... short wall is always problematic, with significant Toe-in and Set up yor speakers (floor standers notwithstanding :-) so that the driver's cemtreline(Tweeters) if not Tannoys, is at 39", sitting listeners' ear level .

Pillows stuck up in the corners of yer room are simply too stupid looking in my opinion to bother with... even if they do work :-)

[Bare]

Old equipment = Old Guys :-) these are almost 50 yr old cars as well.

Could just buy a decent set of Headphones

Suggest speakers on Long wall... short wall is always problematic, with significant Toe-in and Set up yor speakers (floor standers notwithstanding :-) so that the driver's cemtreline(Tweeters) if not Tannoys, is at 39", sitting listeners' ear level .

Pillows stuck up in the corners of yer room are simply too stupid looking in my opinion to bother with... even if they do work :-)

[Bare]

Old equipment = Old Guys :-) these are almost 50 yr old cars as well.

Could just buy a decent set of Headphones

Suggest speakers on Long wall... short wall is always problematic, with significant Toe-in and Set up yor speakers (floor standers notwithstanding :-) so that the driver's cemtreline(Tweeters, if not Tannoys), is at 39", sitting listeners' ear level .

Pillows stuck into the upper corners of your room are simply too stupid looking in my opinion to bother with... even if they do work :-)

[Sheds Moderator]

Old Guys indeed, glad you modified the post or I would have been obliged to come and sort you out at Le Mans. I'm only 36. What I like about the old stuff is the serviceability and supreme value for money. It depreciates like cars do but doesn't wear out at anything like the same rate. I'll never forget plugging in my mate's 50 quid Quad 33/303 and listening to it take my up till then superduper Pioneer A400, rave magazine reviews and all, to the cleaners. I can still drop a few jaws with a £30 Garrard 401 versus a £1200 AVI CD player, in fact had I bought the CD new I'd puke.

 

For those so minded: buy a Thorens 150 in the paper, clean it up and fit a decent cartridge. Likewise a Quad 33/303, Sugden, whatever, and a pair of Celestion Ditton 44s. Change from £500. Take it all to the next hifi show with a few decent pressings, set it up in a corner, see how many of the manufacturers let you out alive! 😬 😬 😬

 

This has a similar level and type of enjoyment to murdering Porkers and M3s with small lightweight sports cars...

[New Barbie]

The Caterham is like good hi-fi, British built for a niche market. I have Audiolab kit that still beats Japanese equipment even though some bits are over a decade of regular use old.

 

My latest tweak is to go to a multi-power amp solution from Myryad - a bunch of Brits who came out of Audiolab and the like a few years agao and decided to build high end British gear - worth checking out as the name is not so well known.

 

 

[EFA]

Did you know that Celestion once occupied the same factory building that AC Cars did???

 

A useless bit of trivia that.......

 

 

The architect designing my new cinema room has some patterns for carbon fibre egg boxes whith which to cover the walls.

 

 

Count, do you use Dunlop gauges to adjust the toe in on you speakers??

 

 

 

 

Fat Arn

Visit the K2 RUM website

See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here

 

[Meldrew]

As a beardless, 36 year old Thorens owner I salute you, BOSS!

[Ralph Morgan]

As one who also still finds vinyl gives CD a good run, even on a half-decent (Cyrus) player, can anyone of you guys suggest a suitable cartridge (possibly the last I'll ever buy!) for my 25 year old Fons turntable (v. similar to Linn Sondek of same vintage) and SME 3009 arm? Plays through a Cyrus 3i and Mission 782s (the most recent purchase - replacing 25 year old B&W DM4s a couple of years back). Getting even further off topic, anyone know if there's a market for a Ferrograph 4 stereo (valve) reel-to-reel tape deck I've got lurking in the loft. Can't bring myself to bin it, but don't have a use for it (unless I set up a classic Hi Fi room with the old Connoisseur turntable, Cyrus 1 amp and those DM4s!).

[New Barbie]

Put the reel to reel on the wall, like the Revox is set up in Pulp Fiction. A friend has a Revox set up like this in his room and it's very cool.

 

 

[Ralph Morgan]

Nice idea, but it is horizontal layout (also bloody heavy - must be at least 30 kg!) so wouldn't fit on a wall or shelf. Perhaps it would make a good addition to the old cameras and other junk around the house for a bit of retro decoration, though!

[Mr Locust]

I seem to recall that my Sony AV amp has charchteristics to tweek which fine tune to the hard or soft charachteristics of the room walls etc. for just the circumstance you have mentioned.

 

Arcam amp is now in the study and is refreshingly button free 😬

[Peter Carmichael]

Agree about firing from the long wall. CD is passe. All my music comes from my Linux server via a Shoutcast service piped over WiFi from the next room to a Turtle Beach Audiotron and fed into an Alpine 3900 DAC powered by a Red Top 30 permanently on trickle charge. The jukebox functions are remote-controlled using a SliMP3 as a slave remote server. The sounds then go into more conventional NAIM amplification and speakers. The phenomenally good NAIM CD-I lies untouched because it is only marginally better than this setup and soooo much more fuss.

 

I don't really understand too much of the above either, but it sounds good.

[EFA]

Robert,

 

I'm going to force you to play with my LP12 with its SME series 3 and Ortofon moving coil cartridge tomorrow.

 

Anyone still got any records???

 

Fat Arn

Visit the K2 RUM website

See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here

 

[New Barbie]

Vinyl was flawed as a medium to start with and in the last 20 years probably 80% at least of new material has been recorded in the digital domain anyway.

 

Even if you buy vinyl now, you are buying an analog conversion of a digitally-encoded original most likely - the very best your LP12 will manage is an accurate reproduction of whatever DAC the studio used.

 

I think vinyl bores are up there with clamshell owners.

 

The Revox has style though and I must admit the Linn turntables have a certain style about them with the pedigree they enjoy.

 

I gave my records away about the same time I discovered Debbie Harry, masturbation and CDs (in that order iirc).

 

 

[Steve-B]

as the 43 year oldie i've got 6' tall front speakers in the front of the room, and wall mounted rears. they're "live" speakers which means mains powered which have less distortion at max volumes

 

the best tuning hint i can give y'all is to turn television to a static ONLY channel. hook to aux input on stereo. one at a time cycle through speakers until static in front only miniscule louder than rear.

 

tunes rooms perfectly , even our 7x6 one...no where's that @#$% remote 🤔

 

Steve

210Bhp Sinister Version-VHPD here

 

Edited by - w1scb on 9 May 2003 21:50:48

[Smokin Joe]

Suggest taking some 24" X 4ft Sonotube (cardboard concrete forms) stuff them loosly with cushion batting and paint or fabric wrap the outsides to match decor to gain WAF (wife acceptance factor)

 

Place tubes in the 4 corners of room they act as great bass traps which will take the boominess out of the room.

 

Position speakers about a third of the way into the room on corner diagonal line. Set toe in to your listening position and adjust front back tilt so tweeters are at ear level. Position your listening position at 150% the distance between speakers.

 

Using mirror along wall when you see speaker reflection from listening position put kiddie mattress, club chair or bookcase at this point each side to absorb reflection.

 

Nice thick rug slightly wider than speakers and all the way to listening chair.

 

This will greatly improve your sound and is a great starting place.

 

Also play white noise (static between radio stations) and switch the speaker wire connections +&- on ONE Speaker and it should sound like it is coming from all around you with no focus at all. This is good! Adjust your speakers toe in toe out 1/4" at a time. The more diffuse you can make it the more tightly focussed it will be when you switch the speaker connection back to normal for listening.

 

Enjoy the music.

 

BTW Count, the groove on a clean lp is about 24 thousand bits a sec., Cd don't come close you just have to have a really good turntable /cartridge to extract the data. Listen to the Muddy Waters Folk singer cd you can hear the chairs creak, on the LP I can hear the air conditioner thermostat in the studio cut on and off!

 

Old Mcintosh gear rules!

Spica Angelus (Angelii?) Sound the best in my 13x17 listening room!

 

Cheers

Joe

 

 

[Paul Ranson]

What a wierd bunch of people. Using SME arms on LP12s..... And then mixing in an MC cart. Don't believe a word he says...

 

I suggest normal furnishings, if the room sounds nice when you have a conversation in it then it's probably fine, and if voices sound odd then you probably won't want to use it as a living room let alone a listening room. I've always preferred the short wall for speakers, perhaps because reflections from sidewalls are good. Consider most of the best sounding concert halls, long and narrow with the stage across the narrow end, then consider the Barbican. QED I think. Damping (rugs, pictures, tapestries, books, etc) if necessary on floor between you and the speakers, on ceiling ditto and on side walls above ear height.

 

Speaker positioning is obviously speaker dependent. Some speakers are designed to operate near the rear wall, some out in free space, some (electrostatics for instance) can tolerate sidewalls but need space behind.

 

Anyway, make the room nice to be in and it'll probably sound good.

 

Paul

[Ian B]

You could try a few carefully placed wall mounted sound absorbers.

 

One range here (bottom of the page) is designed to appear (and can be supplied ready made) as frameless art of your choice.

 

Might fit in quite well with the clean and hard interior design of many French propoerties?

 

If you are serious about getting some let me know as I'm designing 2 cinemas at present with them in

 

(you might need to email my profile address though as I only look into TechTalk occasionally as I usually can't answer much!)

 

Ian - MI 5EVN - Slightly Vider 😬

 

Edited by - Ian B on 10 May 2003 22:35:15

[EFA]

Paul,

 

Whats wrong with an MC30 in an SME S3?

 

I actually had a Systemdek before the LP12 and in all honesty it was a better turntable - less prone to acoustic feedback.

 

I even had half of my record collection on Mobile Fidelity "Original Sound Recording" albums..... Sadly REO Speedwagon was never recorded on such media, (but Led Zep was......)

 

 

 

 

 

Fat Arn

Visit the K2 RUM website

See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here

 

[Smokin Joe]

😬Agreeing with Arnie as Usual!

 

Mourning the loss of Mobile Fidelity even their CD issues were above and beyond in attention to reproducing "the event"

 

Cheers

Joe

 

 

[Sheds Moderator]

2 pages on hifi...on a motor car forum! Seems I didn't need to apologise for O/T since there is more interest in this than (yet another) enquiry as to which tyres are best!

 

As for cartridges and arms, IIRC the SME S3 (not to be confused with the 3009 series 2 or the much better 309) was designed for the Shure V15 something, I forget the number but it's the one they still drone on about in the context of Garrard 401s, Slate Audio and Loricraft. This cart was extremely compliant in the way of most current MM carts so one might expect the performance of an SME 3 with a MC30 (medium compliance at best) to be less than superb. That said I am only repeating what I have heard from SME and from people at shows, I've never listened to one so I won't say "rubbish, it must sound awful", I reserve that comment for things I have heard with my own ears. Naim gear being my personal bête noire, bloody awful IMO.

 

Arnie, if you like your slightly unusual combination, if it works for you, sit back and enjoy the music.

 

Right, as to a halfway decent cart for a Fons/3009 I recommend - 1. Avoiding MCs. These need a better arm, a dedicated phono stage and if you spend less than £silly they tend to have great bass, great treble and rubbish in between. 3009s don't like MCs anywy, they are set up for high compliance carts. 2. The Goldring series of MMs is very good - 1012, 1022, 1042, between £60 & £110, take your pick, the cheapest is well reviewed. I have the 1042 and it is excellent, stomps MCs under £500 with ease. Someone (Reson I think) does a good updated version of selected Goldrings.

 

Above this the sky is the limit, Music Man does a very good Moving Iron cart, but it is dear. Cheaper than the 1012 is uncharted territory for me, maybe an Audiotechnica, but they are squawky IMO, or if it were me I'd be choosing an Ortofon for £20-30, assuming I couldn't justify £60 on the Goldie. I recommend Mantra Audio of Selby for carts, huge stock, best price, mail order. You may get a px deal on an old one, depending on mfr.