Doc007 Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 I know there’s a lot of information and have read half of the 29 page thread on failing Titan’s. But could someone give a quick précis of the options available to replace a BMW Titan LSD that has failed for the second time. The car started as a 360R and burnt out its carbon plates in short order. It is now 266bhp and the diff is making catastrophic noises. If it is failed I want a fit to get the s-and-forget replacement. Or at least something that will last 20k miles. Leaning towards an ATB. I do a few track days but am not a Time Attack merchant and spend very little time on the kerbs. What are my options (Quaife/Tracsport/SPC/ETC) Costs? Pros and cons? Don’t want to spend twice as much to get a similar level of function (Drexler???). Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keeny Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 Check out A caterham called Fern on YouTube, James has just done a video on this with road and race 👍 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keeny Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigCol Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 As per the very l..o..n..g thread, a Titan-based solution is far from fit and forget and will need regular maintenance. The sintered plates are more robust than the carbon ones but nevertheless have a limited lifespan. The consensus is to patronise Steve Perks and go for a TracSport unit. There have been a few positive comments recently about Drexler LSDs too. If you really don’t want/need an LSD, then the Quaiffe ATB is meant to be very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigCol Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 Sorry… re costs… If the crown wheel/pinion are not badly worn then you’ll be looking at a pub lunch over £2k to get Steve to overhaul your diff, replace the bearings and seals before fitting a TracSport and shipping it back to you. Ask me how I know… 🤔😳 If the diff is trashed (or you want to start from scratch to give peace of mind), add circa £1500 to that for a new open diff from Caterham. Getting the diff out is comparatively straight forward (assuming you don’t smash your finger trying to undo a bolt, otherwise it’ll be an elapsed time of over a week; again, ask me how I know). Getting it back in and centred is much more of a ‘mare however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakman Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 I think everyone with a failed Titan LSD has agonised over this topic and read the over 30 pages, 600 posts here about them. My thoughts were initially to go with the "Wavetrac" diff but in the end after "consulting" with Ollie at RRT I opted for the Drexler, set up by Ollie to his specs for a Caterham. The Drexlers are used in BMW endurance racers and the like and have a reputation for being the strongest almost fit and forget diff out there. I expect with yearly oil changes and the way i use my Caterham the Drexler will last a lifetime for me. If i purchased another Caterham the Drexler would be a must have for me. The only downside is the price. I am in Australia so i couldn't just replace the diff centre, i needed the case and cradle/mount as well. I do have a very low mile BMW Titan LSD with no pre load that i might be persuaded to part with, for the right price of course. I bet there are a lot of people here that can say the same thing. I wonder if it might be worth while sending it over to RRT for a sintered plate rebuild. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc007 Posted February 21 Author Share Posted February 21 1 hour ago, Drakman said: My thoughts were initially to go with the "Wavetrac" diff but in the end after "consulting" with Ollie at RRT I opted for the Drexler, set up by Ollie to his specs for a Caterham. The Drexlers are used in BMW endurance racers and the like and have a reputation for being the strongest almost fit and forget diff out there. I expect with yearly oil changes and the way i use my Caterham the Drexler will last a lifetime for me. If i purchased another Caterham the Drexler would be a must have for me. I wonder if it might be worth while sending it over to RRT for a sintered plate rebuild. Thanks Dave. Do you know how much a Drexler is? And a Wavetrac or Tracsport? I already had the carbon plates replaced. In fact they replaced the whole diff as they’d taken the CW&P down with them. Caterham were actually quite reasonable and gave me a new diff for £300 as it was at about 2.5 years old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benton Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 Best pick up the phone and speak to Ollie at RRT. He can give you a direct comparison of prices for Drexler, Quaife, Wavetrac, Tracsport LSD units plus a Titan rebuild cost . He will also of course provide a recommendation based on your budget/requirements though there’s certainly no hard sell at the end of the day. 😀 Bear in mind you also need to consider the actual installation and “diff” refresh costs (bearings/seals) on top of the cost of the new LSD, which seems to vary when comparing overall quotes from any supplier. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel B Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 I had a carbon plate Titan in my 2017 420R that failed in less than 5000 miles. I replaced it with a Tracsport in 2020 and after almost 19000 miles, the Tracsport is still going strong. I’ve been extremely pleased with it, it performs very well & is near silent. I fitted my previous (live axle) Seven with a Quaife ATB. The Quaife was a definite improvement over the open diff the car was supplied with, with noticeably improved traction, particularly in wet or damp conditions. It was as quiet as the open diff & it didn’t give me any trouble in the five years I had it. Personally, I don’t feel the Quaife performs as well as a plate-type LSD though. I still remember how revelatory the (at the time, fully functional!) Titan felt when I first got the 420. That delicious sense that the clutch plates were locked up & any further pressure on the throttle pedal would gently rotate the car. The Quaife felt a bit vague by comparison & it never really gave me that sense of positive connection between throttle & steering. I think there are pros & cons to all these things & what diff suits you best depends on where your priorities lie. I hope that helps & good luck with your search! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7 wonders of the world Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 Doc, Thr ATB offers little over an open diff - pointless with the performance you now have, you want to be able to fully exploit it on tack and for that matter safely on the road too - so forget that as in term of bang for your buck its not a cost effective option. The Drexler is the other end overly expensive, but a great unit. If you don't mind rebuilding your LSD every other year and have limited performance then rebuild your Titan - again £800 plus every other year doesn't sound a great deal Tracsport - designed for the purpose, tried, tested and proven before it was released for general sale, superbly engineered and offered a a sensible price. Send your final drive to Steve at SPC in Redditch, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graearea Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 I have a quaife, it's fine on the road. you're not going to be cornering hard enough that it stops being useful. you can do donuts and drifts and silly things. on the track however in hard cornering on tight corners it will start to slip the inside as the rear lifts. it's pretty bloody annoying at bedford on the hairpins as it just doesn't work. I'd go either Wavetrac or Tracsport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevehS3 Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 Is Wavetrack cheaper than Tracsport? Still got my 4K miles carbon plate Titan sat in the corner of the garage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakman Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 The old saying "don't let my wife sell my toys for what i told her they cost" applies here. The Drexler cost close to $7,000 which works out to roughly 3,500 pound. I think the Wavetrac would make a great option as a fit and forget diff, no plates to wear and it has a locking action the Quaife lacks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7 wonders of the world Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 The Wavetrac doesn't 'lock' it merely adds a temporary load in an attempt to combat the performance failings of an ATB unit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc007 Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 Lots of really helpful comments there chaps. Thank you. Didn’t realise the Drexler as £3.5k!!! Maybe a Tracsport would be a better fit for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakman Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 Doc, that price included sending the diff to me in Australia, postage is not cheap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakman Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 I hope this comes out ok, It should be an explanation of the Wavetrac and why it seems like the best of the ATB diff centers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigCol Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) Seems the conclusion is LSD: Drexler > TracSport > Sintered Titan > Carbon Titan > ATB: Wavetrac > Quaiffe in terms of both performance and price! Edited February 22 by BigCol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerobod - near CYYC Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 I think the Drexler option should be available for about €2,000 (£1,700) if you can fit it locally to an existing 168K casing with pinion and crown wheel. https://www.kmpdrivetrain.com/product/lsd-drexler-model-request/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7 wonders of the world Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 10 hours ago, BigCol said: Seems the conclusion is LSD: Drexler > TracSport > Sintered Titan > Carbon Titan > ATB: Wavetrac > Quaiffe in terms of both performance and price! theres nothing to indicate the Drexler performs better than the Tracsport, cost and performance are not always linked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakman Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Personally the reason i went with the Drexler is because i don't want to be pulling the diff out every couple of years for a rebuild. Ollie at RRT believes they are the strongest longest lasting option for me. I also considered the Wavetrac for the same reason, low/no maintenance other than oil changes. I am considering sending my RS Titan LSD back to the UK for a rebuild by either Tracsport or RRT and that will be based solely on cost because it will be a spare that can be put back in when/if i sell this Caterham and get another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7 wonders of the world Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Understand your logistical reasoning... That's a hell of a shipping task... Was there no one out there that can rebuild a final drive...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakman Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 I got some quotes to rebuild the Titan here, labour alone was $1500 - $2000 if all went well. I wanted to supply the parts but was told they wouldn't guarantee the work unless they supplied the parts. The decider for me was that no one here knows what a Caterham is, yes they can rebuild a diff but i wanted someone that knew the quirks of the Caterham. I did a lot of reading about the different options for my car and after several emails and phone calls with Ollie at RRT i went with the Drexler. Another diff i was really interested in was the O.S Giken made in Japan i think. This would have been my first choice but the OS Giken dealer here just wasn't interested in me at all, too busy with racing cars apparently. I did get on to a company that sells the O.S Giken in Italy of all places and the manager there was so helpful, he contacted the factory for me and was told they had made diff centres for the BMW 168? case in the past but none were available at that time but they were looking into making more in the future. The O.S. Giken diff from memory uses coil springs as well, not Belleville washers. I think Belleville washers are a weak link so coil springs are appealing to me. My other car is a Leyland Moke and they use a large Belleville washer as a clutch spring and are a pain to set up properly to get them dead flat. Cheers Dave https://www.difflab.com.au/products/bmw-168k-168lw-lsd-os-giken-superlock?_pos=11&_sid=fbcfc421f&_ss=r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakman Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 The O. S. Giken Diff. https://www.difflab.com.au/pages/os-giken-superlock-technology I would be very interested in others thoughts on this diff for a Caterham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7 wonders of the world Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 If the design of the LSD permits the Bellevilles to operate with their prescribed limits they are no problem...they offer uniform clamping in a easy space conscious form. When the design allows them to go beyond this is when your start to expirience repeated premature failures as in the case of the Titan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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