K Series new starter motor protection

[Fallon]

Hello all,

After the succesful resolution of my timing issue, Thanks again Revilla!, I thought I would return for some advice.

I have just fitted a new Starter motor (link at the bottom of post) after the last one started to only be of any use when cold (sat in petrol stations asking people for a push after refilling was wearing a bit thin).

Reading the literature it says heat and vibration will damage the motor but do not wrap it in thermal insulation as this can cause it to overheat. I've read in another post from 2014 that as its only running for a few seconds tops this shouldn't be an issue so not sure what to think.

I was going to wrap the exhaust but have been advised you want to get the heat away from the K Series block as efficiently as possible to prevent high temperatures softening the aluminium casting.

I am now left pondering 3 options.

1) Sod it, just wrap the starter motor in insulating material

2) Wrap the exhaust but only locally to the starter motor to allow heat dissipation from as much exhaust area as possible

3) Fit a Heat shield (GIIIX 3 sort of material) although the starter motor exhaust gap is about 3-4mm at the closest point so this might be a challenge to avoid contact with 1 or the other.

 

Any advice or shared experience would be welcome.

 

https://brise.co.uk/product/caterham-c890510pgr/?v=79cba1185463

 

 

[Jonathan Kay]

Did you check the condition of the connections and wiring as well as replacing the starter? And do you yet know whether that has made a difference to starting when hot?

Have you assembled the starter so that the wiring and solenoid are as far away as possible from the hot bits?

After that I'd consider a shield but not wrapping the starter.

Jonathan

PS: There's a known problem with some Brise starters where they drop the system voltage while cranking and the car's electronics complain. Please let us know if you detect anything like that,

[Fallon]

Thanks for the reply

I did check the connections previously and although nothing major found I do intend to replace the engine harness this winter.

The starting when hot issue has been remedied by the replacement starter motor, Even when cold the old one did not have the oomph the new one has.

I did rotate the starter solenoid as far around as possible away from the Exhaust.

I'll keep an eye out for the Voltage issue, how does it manifest itself?

[Jonathan Kay]

"Brise Starter Current Draw / Transients"

Jonathan

[paul richards]

Are you sure it was a faulty starter? Hope the new starter works for you but if not See Here

[Fallon]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the link, I think this relay is already in place on my car (pretty certain) so thats 1 job I don't have to do.

Hi Jonathan,

Intersting reading! and unfortunately that is exactly what my car is now doing, start her up and need to apply some throttle. Then after 5 second ish she will idle fine. I thought nothing of it, having only started her a handful of times since fitting the motor and Andrew resolving my timing issue. I have a new battery fitted so don't have the option to replace to remove the problem so I think I need to source a new starter.

Any advice on what is the best starter to get would be gratefully received.

Also, Will using the car in its current state damage the ECU with it having to reboot on start up?

[Jonathan Kay]

This is with the old starter?

What make is it?

I'd also check the battery. Does it need topping up?

And what's the battery voltage at rest, minimum during cranking, and 3,000 rpm?

NB the transients that Andrew identified were too brief to be spotted with an ordinary multimeter and required a storage oscilloscope.

Jonathan

[Jonathan Kay]

Andrew has now replied in the other thread.

Signed: The Monkey

[Fallon]

This is with the old starter? No the old starter just had the dreaded click when hot

What make is it? The new Starter is a Brise, this si the one that now needs the revving at start up as it won't idle for a few seconds

I'd also check the battery. Does it need topping up? Just fitted a new battery and the problem wasn't there with the old starter so sure it is ok

And what's the battery voltage at rest, minimum during cranking, and 3,000 rpm? Not checked the Battery voltage but will go on the list when I start working on the fault

NB the transients that Andrew identified were too brief to be spotted with an ordinary multimeter and required a storage oscilloscope.

 

Thanks for your help on this Jonathan, much appreciated!

[Toby S]

Interesting

Following a number of years where the starter was troublesome when hot (didn't even get a click sometimes), and or fuel pump wasn't priming when first turning on,and to top it all intermediate cutting out issues when warm/hot  and wouldn't restart until cool (if at all) - the intermittent nature of any of the above faults was  getting more regular and becoming a major pain in the neck -   - I finally spend some time sorting it earlier this year. For me

• Had the starter checked - starter itself was fine but the solenoid was fried and also the cowling was rattling as one of the bolts had sheared and it was possible it was causing the electrics to short out - had starter refurb with a new solenoid - £85 
• Whlist the starter was away being refurbed wrapped the exhaust primaries from the head to the side skin to keep heat down in the engine bay and in the exhaust system to improve flow.
• Also wrapped heat resistant material (one layer) round the starter when it got back (not tight) concentrating on the solenoid  - my engine doesn't take excessive amount of cranking - typically a second or 2 - bloke who re-furbed the starter recommended it given the position of the solenoid and the exhaust primaries (admittedly he wasn't a Caterham but starter motor specialist)
• Previous owner had already done the relay job referred to #5 a number of years ago but changed the relay just to make sure (new one was only a few quid)
• Also checked the main battery thick leads - positive and negative - mine were getting quite brittle (30 year old car) and I replaced all main leads from battery via FIA switch with upgraded thickness and also all earthing leads
• Finally found an intermittent drop in connection at the ignition switch barrel end and replaced with a Longacre dash mounted ignition/starter switch and re wired the under dash ignition wires whilst I was about it.
• Had tested battery, alternator and FIA switch prior to starting the work and had already eliminated those as possible problem areas

May have been a bit OTT, and I should imagine there were various faults causing the different issues but done circa 2,500 miles since doing the work and nothing untoward as yet, hot or cold and starts on the button (and more importantly no cutting out issues) - blats of between an hour and 5-6 hours

Not sure how old your car is, but if anything like mine, the electrics do get a bit tired with age and you may end up with a number of issues working in unison like I did. 

[Geoff Brown]

18 gauge aluminium shield is the way to go. The thickness allows bending to a curve to conform with the starter profile.

Attachment can be a problem but if one integrates right angled tangs on all sides to establish 'air' between the shield & motor with a small hole in then lock wire can be used wrapped around the body to hold in place. That is a bit of a fiddle but I employed this on two K Series with success.

[Wrightpayne]

With metal heat shields (or foil coated) I'm just wary of the proximity of hefty battery cables and exposed connectors - there is a risk of shorting.

[Fallon]

Thank you for the advice Geoff, Toby and WrightPayne

Likely I will be employing your methods in the near future!

[revilla]

Just one thing to be careful of. Big exposed terminals on the front of the solenoid which are connected to the battery by thick cables and no fuse. Just make sure that any sheet aluminium heat shield can't come into contact with those, even if it comes loose, otherwise you'll have a lot of damage and possible a fire to deal with.

[7 wonders of the world]

Seems a good time to think about adding one of these   a good addition to any 7 

https://justaddlightness.co.uk/product/fire-safety-stick/

 

[timb2117]

Totally agree with above sound advice. I have ceramic coated the headers, cuts about 30% radiated heat. Also used a silvered and glass fibre adhesive mat across starter, (turbo matting) avoiding blocking any vent points. Plus same product on cables, in vicinity of exhaust, essentially anything vulnerable is now silver :). 

One product I do like (banned in about 32 US states :)) is liquid electrical tape, it is a gloopy thick paint that you brush on to vulnerable contacts points as noted in the above posters comments. If you need to remove the contact later on it takes a little longer to gently pry away the plastic dried "tape" but I feel is good insurance against shorting out.

And yup prevention is better than cure...

[anthonym]

@16 timb I am pleased to hear your engine has not melted as mine have just been ceramic coated too. 
 

Starter; also check thé thin wire to the solenoid; mine was down to 7 volts. 
cover both wires in heat protection sleeving. anthony 

 

I have Brise too, but an older pre problem one.