CSR Sump Guard

[Shortshift]

James, sadly I am a long way from my car so cannot contribute but I am following this with interest and wanted to let you know I am grateful for the work you have put into this and look forward to a definitive solution, fingers crossed.

Thanks Frogman but I think there are now two aspects to this:

1.  I am working on what I hope will be an effective wedge-shaped sump guard for the low-hanging/deep finned Cosworth CSR sumps, that will mount to the cruciform area on the chassis just ahead of the engine with the intention of providing a 'lift and glide' (!) form of protection.  That's the main thrust (and the quasi-serious bit).

2.  Secondly, aided and abetted by Neil and Mark, we seem to be uncovering a large number of different types of Duratec dry sump arrangements that have been fitted to Caterhams of different varieties over the years.  I guess we're cataloging these just for the fits and giggles, really, and because it's interesting at a time when we have a lot of time on our hands!

James

[Shortshift]

UPDATE TO #45, POSTED 9/5/20, WITH CORRECTED SUMMARY

 

Summarising and updating with latest information, it seems that there are five dry-sump configurations commonly used on Duratec engined Caterhams:

(a) CSR standard fit - deep Cosworth pan (and worryingly little ground clearance) with vertical front cooling fins and integrated pipework for the bellhousing oil tank, no provision for front-mounted tubular sump guard/bar.  (This is the spec as fitted to James B's car, which is a 2006 build).

(b) Aftermarket Caterham Cars kit from circa 2010 era - as sold several years ago by Caterham Cars for retrofit kit, made for them by Cosworth.  Based on and very similar to (a), deep Cosworth pan but with angled front cooling fins, same ground clearance issues and different plumbing arrangements (side connections) to support external oil tank.  Caterham cast-in branding.  (This spec that can be found on the internet in a thread from 2010 by David Long, where he converted a wet-sump R400 to a dry-sump configuration, using the kit sold by Caterham Cars for retrofit).

© Cosworth's own sump, also used on early 620s - pan casting (with Cosworth branding) is significantly different in form, size of cooling fins (smaller), profile and dimension from versions (a) and (b).  It is available from Cosworth and their retail agencies and is what you get when you purchase a Duratec dry sump from the Cosworth brochure.  It is capable of taking a front-mounted tubular sump guard/bar.  Still has low ground clearance issues (though not as low as (a) or (b) designs).  It was fitted to at least some early 620s, up to and including 2016 builds (for instance, it is the sump fitted to Mark W's 2014 build 620R).

(d) R500, R420 and more recent 620R standard fit - Caterham branded Raceline dry sump fit - with shallow pan, improved ground clearance under engine (leading to ground clearance issues at the interface to the deeper bellhousing).  No provision for front-of-engine tubular sump guard/bar and used in conjunction with the black nylon wedge-shaped sump guard between engine and bellhousing.  This is also the current retrofit kit as sold by Caterham Cars.

(e) Raceline's own version - their own dry sump for fitment to Duratecs, (not branded Caterham) but otherwise very similar to (d) but with detail differences - for example, having a wider/longer cast bar across the front of the casting.

So that seems to summarise it - no fewer than five different Duratec dry-sump arrangements that we know have been used on Caterhams of varying types at various times. 

Is that it, or are there more?

James

 

[7 wonders of the world]

As I thought with the 620 variants, I understand the Cosworth is now no longer made, although in a Caterham the Raceline is a better package as the ground clearance is much improved as most Duratecs are installed slightly nose down.

The Cosworth variants were Made by Titan.

The wider front edge of the Raceline has no impact on operation, I believe CC asked for it to be narrowed to offer more clearance between the pan and the nearside lower chassis rails, some of the early ones were manually trimmed.

If you want the ultimate in ground clearance the Raceline DS can be used with their compact bellhousing (in long or short format) a new 268 OD flywheel and starter, this removes the step between the standard bell housing and the sump.

Compact flywheels can be ordered take the stock 8.5" AP clutch or 71/4 race versions.

 

If anyone is looking to modify or retro fit these may be of use

Made by ex Pace employee funnily enough, he will alter fittings and locations to your requirements, worth adding a drain plug underneath.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dry-sump-oil-tank-5L-De-aeriation-Baffled-Easily-cleanable/184265704844?hash=item2ae717858c:g:iysAAOSwZVlXrJKF

Or Ralloy can make a round tank ot fit in the short footwell in conventional 1 piece format for much less again fitting etc to suit, I've had a couple made by them superb quality and very nice guys to deal with.

https://www.ralloy.com/

I still have the drawing for mine if anyone need it.

and for fittings and hose these guys in Abergavenny are excellent again I've used a lot of their push fit fittings without issue.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/torquesuk

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shortshift]

Great - thanks for the further info and insight, Neil.  It's just satisfying to unravel these little mysteries!  And always useful as reference material for people looking in the future.

James

[Shortshift]

Meanwhile, back on the initial topic of a 'lift and glide' sump guard for my "Type (a)" deep Cosworth CSR sump, there are stirrings abroad...

Some tasters:

 

 

Apologies that the final photo has decided to invert itself but progress is definitely being made!

James

[Jonathan Kay]

[Shortshift]

Thank you Jonathan!

James

[Mark w]

Could you not angle that plate by changing the mounts and forget about adding anything else ? 

Add lightness 

 

[7 wonders of the world]

or see about getting the plate made in Kevlar sheet - we used this on chassis mounted gaurds on the rally cars pretty indestructable.

you could also look to give the more exposed fins a haircut too with a fine cutting disc...

[Shortshift]

#58 - Not easily, Mark, without full machine shop capabilities!  You need to appreciate the gap (distance that the sump hangs below anything of structural value is around 50mm) that needs to be accommodated here, and also the non-planar geometry of the chassis members (cruciform) in that area.  But I have now a good platform here (easy for others to copy) for mounting the 'wedge' piece - one that looks (to a reasonably experienced eye) to be capable of distributing the expected 'impact' loads in a balanced way into and through the stiff cruciform elements.  And, err, this is a CSR - not very much bothered by the small amount of additional weight!

#59 - Neil - yes, but I'm doing this in a way that is easy for people to replicate using the normal tool suite that one tends to have in and around the domestic garage!  I have radiused the fins and I'm happy with that as a compromise (it'll be less important once the wedge is mounted).

James

[Frogman]

Looking good James, it would be great if you detail all the parts used once you have the wedge on as I suspect I shall want to add something similar to mine.

[Shortshift]

Yes, Frogman, will do when I know I have something that works and can be copied.  Bill of material, including any good supply sources I used.

I'm convinced that getting the plate arrangement in place, securely mounted and capable of passing impact loads in a distributed manner into the rigid cruciform area is the right approach.  It gives various options for the wedge piece itself.

But... just realised I may have lost my front central jacking point.  Ah, b*gger...  No doubt (well, hopefully) I'll find a solution.

James

[aerobod - near CYYC]

Perhaps for the front central jacking point, when you create the wedge you can cut an 80mm hole in the centre, directly under the cruciform? This will allow a hockey puck or two to be used in the cup of a standard floor jack to lift in the normal position, without loosing too much material to affect the functionality of the wedge.

[Mark w]

You could just put a piece of suitable wood across the car behind the tow eye and jack on that .

Ive never really liked jacking on the cruxciform , the geometry sort of looks wrong to take a vertical load , tend to do the above and stick a couple of axle stands in place .

[ECR]

Jacking a 1990 chassis with a VX 2.0 on the cruciform bent it .....

[Mark w]

Just spotted this on FB 

[Shortshift]

Blimey! 

James

[John Vine]

Re #61:

I'm also following this with interest.  I may have missed it, but will your design suit a wet-sump S3 Duratec?  If so, I'd be very keen to fit something similar to my R400D, especially having suffered a cracked sump and associated expense.

JV

[7 wonders of the world]

John,

you would be much better going dry sump and gaining 35mm extra clearence, too many have taken wet sumps out S3 reaching full compression on a crowned road

theres a used Raceline on ebay here.....

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-duratec-dry-sump-kit-caterham-420r-620r-oil-pump-drive-chain-2-3-2-0/333150715310?hash=item4d91547dae:g:n1wAAOSwYEBcrQhA

 

 

[Shortshift]

I've got about as far as I can, now, pending delivery of some additional fixings (M6 button head; 50mm and 60mm long) to allow me to have a final trial fit - and then, on the assumption that it does all fit, I'll take photos and document it as best I can.  So possibly the end of this week, or over the weekend (depending mainly on eBay deliveries).

But to answer your question (#68) John, I've just been out to the garage to look at my S3 and whilst the cruciform area is different in detail terms from the CSR arrangement, I think that the approach here should work just as well on the narrow-bodied cars. 

I'm increasingly confident that getting the horizontal plate in place (made of 6mm alu sheet in my design) and well-secured with that interlocking arrangement of four half/split tube fixings, is the key to this.  The fixing concept looks to be remarkably strong and, whatever the impact loads, they should be well distributed around the inherently stiff cruciform area.  Then the horizontal plate acts as a stiff, strong and adaptable platform from which to mount a wedge device to suit (and protect) whatever engine is sitting immediately behind it; I can see from the photos of your car that the Duratec wet-sump looks to be similarly deep to the Cosworth dry-sump casting on the CSR. 

So at this stage, I'd give a tentative    to the concept working on S3 cars as well, with appropriate detail differences.  Time will tell!

James

[Mark w]

Well done James , out of interest how did you cut the thick base plate . Your " normal " DIY garage equipment must be less       " normal " than mine 

 

[7 wonders of the world]

Problem is James the CSR suspension runs quite a different ratio to the S3 and the later, being falling rate goes thro its travel much quicker under hard bump conditions which is why there's been so many casualties of wet sumped S3's,

Along with this the CSR cruciform is braced to tolerated the additional loading imposed by the inboard front suspension, something that's not present on the S3, more that one S3 cruciform has be damaged with a simple trolley jack so its not going to fair too well kissing a Welsh B road at NSL or above

I would no advocate mounting any sump gaurd in this area but would focus on removing the possibility of the impact by moving the two conflicting factors apart by imposing a form of  'Engineering distancing'   

[Shortshift]

Good thoughts, Neil, but I think the cruciform area was considerably changed and beefed-up with the change to metric chassis?  I am not aware of any cruciform bending issues with later cars and I know it is commonly used for front jacking without any issues.  But interested to hear of any contradictory experiences!

Looking at my own S3 (a 2012 car), whilst the cruciform structure does seem to be constructed pretty much in a single horizontal plane (the CSR structure, whilst quite similar, does indeed have a little bit of vertical depth and hence some modest triangulation in that plane as well) it does - by inspection - look to be pretty stiff and strong. 

I'm sure the point you raise is worth further consideration but I'm not convinced at this stage that the design principles I'm looking at for the CSR should be ruled out, at this stage, for at least the later S3 cars.  I'll have more of a look later, when I get some time.

James

[John Vine]

Re #69:

I take your point, Neil, and we've discussed this before.  However, at the moment I'm not looking to make the investment needed to convert to a dry-sump set-up.  That might change, of course.

JV

[7 wonders of the world]

Understand John, 

Might be worth a cheeky offer as it's been on there for a while now.

BM me if you need any detail on the set up I run,

Wet sumps always sell well on ebay too