CSR Sump Guard

[Shortshift]

Anyone done it, or have any ideas on how to do it?  I've searched on here and seen one approach but I'm interested in case there are are other ideas or designs that have been developed but not shared.

(The front face of the sump does seem to be awfully bluff - and exposed!)

James

PS - the CSR is quite different from a conventional Duratec S3 where it's the gearbox front flange that needs to be protected; on the CSR it's the leading face of the cast sump.

[7 wonders of the world]

I'm guessing your CSR has the Cosworth DS set up .... which has the same ground clearance on the front leading edge as the wet sump - and there are several of us who have taken those out on a cats eye !

The only issue with a sump gaurd is your reduce the clearance even more, and although it can spread the load of the impact it will still contact the sump or transfer the load to the chosen mounting points of the gaurd - chassis or block / bellhousing.

The Raceline DS which your R500 runs offers 35mm more clearance on the front so unless you desperately want to keep it 'factory' I think you know where I'm going....

 

 

[NeilCSR]

Long pondered on this - thought about creating a titanium sheet 'bash plate' to fit in front which would take any initial impact (with holes for airflow) but never taken it further - yet.  Always been a concern, doubly aware to avoid anything in the road in the centre line of the car.

Neil

[7 wonders of the world]

I got caught by a cats eye whilst completeting and overtake on a crowned road....... no chance to spot it a quick and pretty light impact and that was that... a light crack in the sump

Fellow member kissed the road on a club run was not quite so lucky tearing the front left hand corner off, tearing the engine mounts and putting a ding in te bonnet too !

We were both on wet sumps but dimensionally these are the same as the Cosworth version.

[Shortshift]

I do know where you're going with the Raceline idea, 7WotW, but that's a rather expensive approach and, as I know from my R500, introduces its own problems as you end up with a shallower sump but a big, exposed cliff-face at the front of the bell housing.  Which then needs its own 'sump' guard protector...

Interestingly, I am about to replace my CR500's with a set of new ZZR's and, as is well documented, these are not a size-for-size replacement.  Just moving from the 195/45-15 CR500 to 195/50-15 ZZR's looks to provide the best part of 12/13mm of increased ground clearance - whoopee (though wondering if I will need to adjust rake by lifting the rear of the car to maintain things?).  So the tyure cahnge will be a step in the right direction.

But, as Neil said above, maybe a 'bash plate' or 'ramp plate' might be the way forward.  I'll get the car on the lift later today and start to have a look from underneath.  Maybe a bit of cardboard engineering to start with...  Who knows, if I come up with something maybe I can make a small fortune by commercialising the design to the half-dozen or so Club members on here who are CSR owners!

James

[7 wonders of the world]

Tyre size will help though as you say the rake will need correcting too.

The lip on the bellhousing is not an issue I have the same set up and the CC nylon wedge deals with this very well and I've only kissed mine on 2 speed humps one being a vicious half sausage on a hotel drive it slide over with no problem though.

The front edge is the issue, especially under full compression on a B road.... as the engines are slightly nose down too

Just thinking another member trashed his block as the impact transferred to the oil pump, this would be very easy on yours as the scavenge pump is just inside the sump at the low point. I bought the same DS set up and upon measuring it sold it straight away and got the Raceline version.

The impact on full compression at pace will do damage and the impact has to absorbed somewhere......

I had a plate alloy skid set up on my K series and it did spread the load although it would defrom and resonant on the sump - Ti would resist this and make some amazing sparks too 

Swapping to Raceline may be money well spent ad there's a market for the used Cosworth ones - certainly cheaper than an engine rebuild / new bonnet / chassis damage.

[Shortshift]

Any idea of the cost to change to the Raceline setup, 7WotW??

James

[7 wonders of the world]

Heres a few numbers for you James,

Raceline DS direct from Raceline is 895 + vat

Nylon wedge (CC) 74 + vat

Hoses to suit  - you can easily make these up with push fit -12 fittings - assuming the CSR runs the triangular Brise tank..? 

Tube RTV sealant 12

New standard length chain for oil pump 80  

Crank bolt 8

Diamond washers 22

New oil / filter

Crank timing kit / feelers 30

I've used these guys for -12 Aeroquip hose and push fittings on several occasions with no issues at all.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/torquesuk/AN-12-Push-On-Hose-Fittings/_i.html?_storecat=1604902012

Nice job on a ramp 

Pete @ Raceline might be able to put a deal together including chain bolt and washers etc, he's a really decent guy.

[Shortshift]

Many thanks for all of that detail - much appreciated.  But it does all add up...  And I would need a new external oil tank as the CSR has one inside the bellhousing.  So, overall, I suspect that making this move might be a step too far for me, though I might ponder a bit.

James

[7 wonders of the world]

No reason why you cant use the bell tank - it's just an oil tank the pump wont mind where it is, mine is on the end 0f a short footwell so no different - just adust your pipe work to suit.

ISTR the feed pipe comes out on the passenger side so thats perfect.

We used to have the oil tanks in the boot of the Mk 2 rally cars without issue

saw this might be worth a look too

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333150715310

[Shortshift]

Hah - I also saw that item last night!  I have messaged the seller to find out more...

Will also send you a BM.

James
 

[paul jacobs]

Have you thought about raising the whole engine James?  If you use spacers under the engine mounts, maybe you will need longer bolts too, you can lift the engine half an inch or so, until it is just short of touching the bonnet by a mm or 2.  The only real difficulty is the space around the exhaust and you might have to relieve the bodywork very slightly.

After I raised my engine, I never had another bashing.  Of course the 50 section tyres will do the same thing, but you can also gain a little more by raising the engine too.

[Shortshift]

That's an interesting thought, Paul.  I had no idea you could raise the engine as much as half an inch; maybe a quarter would be a good compromise... and i don't know how much clearance there is to the underside of the bonnet.   And did you also raise the gearbox mount by a corresponding (pro-rated) smaller amount?

Should add that I think I can also profile the front cooling fins so that they are at least on a slope (like a ramp) rather than at dead vertical as they are.  So angle the fins a bit, raise the engine a tad, increase the ride height with ZZS's a gnat's wotsit and - hey presto - I'll soon be able to drive over a double-decker bus and get away with it!

James

[sjmmarsh]

James

i had a look through my archives. While there have been a few discussions over the years, I don't know if anyone who has ended up fitting a sump guard in the end. 
The nearest it got was Darren Harold who was looking to fit a nylon wedge (in 2008) and this thread on pistonheads .

i have run without one for 13 years and 40k miles, with only minor dings inflicted.

I think part of the problem is that fitting a guard reduces the clearance (and so increases the chance of a strike) and the force has to be absorbed somewhere - if it isn't the sump, then the only other area to take the impact is the spaceframe, which is why the solutions tend to focus on a nylon wedge with some give in it rather than a metal bar or plate. Remember that it needs to be capable of lifting the whole car by a few mm when it is at speed, so the forces involved are not trivial. 

Just avoid cast iron cats eyes in the crown of the road!

Steve
 

[7 wonders of the world]

I wouldn't look at raising the engine, for one it will affect the CoG, but also the fit of the primaires thro the side skin, hoses, lines, driveline etc etc.

 

[David Brown]

The lowest point on my 2008 CSR is the strengthening hoop under the bell housing though I think later cars may not have this. I occasionally grind it over speed humps but know to take them slowly. What sump clearance do you have? If tight would raising the suspension 10mm all round seriously affect the handling? Does the nylon wedge extend lower than the sump or flush and what does it bolt onto?

[David Brown]

The lowest point on my 2008 CSR is the strengthening hoop under the bell housing though I think later cars may not have this. I occasionally grind it over speed humps but know to take them slowly. What sump clearance do you have? If tight would raising the suspension 10mm all round seriously affect the handling? Does the nylon wedge extend lower than the sump or flush and what does it bolt onto?

[David Brown]

A few years ago was staying in a hotel with a long driveway with several speed humps that I ground on the first night. Before breakfast I found the Gardner who gave me a length of timber and I just had to get my glamorous assistant to place it in front of each hump and then run ahead to place it for the next one - no problem. (although she was a bit breathless by the time we got to the last one). 

[Shortshift]

Replying to #16 and other thoughts:  yes, my car has the hoop under the gearbox and it looks as though it has taken a few scrapes in the past.  But it's the front of engine (potentially the first point of contact) that I'm most concerned about.

The nylon wedge will not fit to a CSR which has the deep Cosworth / Titan dry sump casting; the wedge is intended to be used with the shallower Raceline dry sump arrangement that is nowadays frequently fitted to the performance Duratec cars (R400, R500, etc).  I can see the wedge doing a good job of protecting the bellhousing leading edge on these cars (the lowest point of the powertrain with the Raceline set up) as it will help to 'lift' the car over the obstacle, rather than the bellhousing front face taking the full force of any impact.

I think it's a similar approach that's needed on the CSR - a ramp concept - but this time mounted in front of the engine as it's the front face of the Cosworth / Titan sump casting that is most exposed on my car.  Question is - how to engineer such a thing, and how (and where) to attach it to the car in front of the engine whilst not also further reducing ground clearance so that any impact loads (hopefully, 'lift and glide' loads) will not cause widespread damage either to the engine, it's mountings or the chassis frame?

Thirty minutes spent carrying out some cardboard modeling suggests that something might be possible, and I will probably pursue this.  But there again, with the sump front fins newly angled (sloped) and an increase in ground clearance provided by new front tyres then (even without any lift on the engine mounts) perhaps I'll be 99% safe without the addition of a guard.

James

[adrian.britnell]

James

i have a CSR, the previous owner designed and had made a crumple zone arrangement to go in front of the sump.

I've added a ramp in the hope the car will ride up over any "issue" or will deform and not hit the sump directly.

The car is in lockdown somewhere else so the above photo is the only one I have currently.

Adrian

 

[Shortshift]

Adrian - that's very interesting.  I'm leaning towards the 'ramp' concept (to encourage the car to rise and glide over any debris it may encounter) and I'd be really interested in any other pictures or information you may have, when you are able to access things!

Actually, if you could send a better copy of that photo to me (james@jbatchelor.co.uk) that might help me along in the meantime.  TIA.

James

[Frogman]

James, grateful of you could keep us update as you make progress please.

[Shortshift]

Will do Frogman.  I am awaiting some components but am hopeful that I will end up with a 'lifter' wedge that will locate ahead of the sump.  Getting something that will be strong enough and yet will spread the load adequately in the front cruciform area is the challenge - but I think I'm on the right track.

James

[Mark w]

James 

I am late to this thread . Is the CSR dump different to the general Duratec dry sump ? 
 

My car has this bar on the front that seems to protect from more minor contact , at least my sump pan isn't ground away like my old K series used to be .

[Shortshift]

Mark - yes, very different as the recent Duratec cars such as 420s and 500s that have the shallow Raceline drysump whereas the CSRs had one from Cosworth which hangs down quite a bit.  As a consequence, the low point on CSRs is the front face of the sump whilst on many of the more recent Duratec vehicles it is the step to the bellhousing that is the low point.  And it's coming up with a suitable design to fit ahead of the CSR engine that I'm currebntly struggling with.

I always worried about the efficacy of that round-bar arrangement, which CC put on many of the Duratec derivatives, at the rear of the engine and ahead of the bellhousing step, during the 2012-2015 (ish) era.  I struggled to see how it would provide anything other than token protection to the bellhousing and transmission behind it.  So for my R500 I bought the more recent 'nylon wedge' from CC which bolts on in place of the round-bar and, by inspection, is a much better approach. It's described as a sump guard and costs around £85 from memory, which is a lot for a part-moulded, part-machined block of plastic, but I reckon it's money well spent.

Having said all of that, although your picture could be misleading it does seem to show the same (or similar) round-bar arrangement at the front of the engine in your car.  Perhaps the 620 versions are different again?  Thinking aloud, maybe the 620s have yet another drysump type (Pace, for instance?*) which allows fitment of the round-bar ahead of the engine sump?  Every day's a school day!

James

* Edited on 9/5/20 to advise that the dry sump fitted to Mark W's 620R is not a Pace but is another Cosworth variant, seemingly the same version that Cosworth sells directly as its own design/own product.