paul jacobs Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 I've run into a really big snag. I am using an older 115bhp 1600 K engine and ECU in a new chassis, with current immobiliser. The two cannot be made to work together, so I either need another ECU/Imobiliser [see my wanted advert] or the other path is to disarm the immobiliser - if possible. Is there anyone here who knows if this is possible and how it can be done? Perhaps because of the sensitive nature of this enquiry, it may be better to email me off list. Paul Back in the fold with my new Black/Ali. 1600K Seven reg'n A7 YEP, looking good for spring take off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Thompson Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 If you can get it to disarm once then you can just snip one wire and it will never re-arm. Have you got access to the correct ECU to disarm it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan7 Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Haaaaa But which wire 🤔 🤔 How do you get the dead flys off your teeth 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Paul - why not forget the Rover MEMS and go straight for an Emerald ECU (as I think you are planning to do some time)? If you want to test whether this will work, my Emerald is temporarily available. The Emerald "learns" the signal from the immobiliser and should be able to cope with whatever you've got . SV 52 CAT the mole is hibernating Edited by - mole on 5 Mar 2003 10:01:53 Edited by - mole on 5 Mar 2003 10:02:15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Molloy Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 I was part of the design team for the Rover Security System. If anyone is interested I knocked up a technical note explaining the operation of the immobiliser in its Caterham application. Please mail me if you want a copy (mike.molloy@trw.com). For the Engine Management System and the Immobiliser ECU to work together they need to be an original matched set. The immobiliser is programmed with a unique security code (MEMS Code) that is learnt by the virgin EMS on first connection. Thereafter the EMS requires this code to be sent upon Ignition-ON otherwise it won't light up. Did you purchase the engine and immobiliser ECUs separately? If they came as a package there is a fair chance that they are matched and the fault lies somewhere else (e.g. RF remotes). BTW, this "wire snipping" concept is bollox! 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted March 5, 2003 Leadership Team Share Posted March 5, 2003 Mike, maybe you're the best advice I need My car's a '95 K-series ex racer (this was I believe pre immobiliser days), but now fitted with an Emerald. I have a K-Series immobilser from a supersport that I wish to wire in to function with the Emerald combined with the plippers that came with the immobiliser. Going off the latest wiring diagram (post 2000 eu3 & 3) there appears to be only 10 wires to the immobilser unit, a good number of which are +ves, -ves etc. Is there a basic system for wiring these in to the relavent points on the loom - being '95 wiring? Is there a method of checking if I have the correct plippers for the unit - internal signal etc? Any advice at all would be a major help Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Best Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Mike, You also seem to be the guy I need advice from I have a secondhand SS ECU. The AS5 that came with it will not imobilise the SS ECU so I was thinking of getting Rover to reintilaise one or other of the AS5 units against my new ECU. The only difference I can see with the new AS5 is that it has two plug sockets and a big A instead of an big L printed on it, is this compatable with the Caterham installtion 🤔 The Local Rover delears arn't being that helpful so any guidance and also what I need to ask the dealer to do, or info to do it myself would be useful. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmc Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 cut pin 13 but this will only work with a virgin/uncoded ecu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Thompson Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 The Rover road cars I've disarmed where the keyfob goes dodgy are obviously different to the one on the 7 then. I was trying to help but since you are calling me a liar I won't ****ing bother again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Steady on guys. Jue chill. Mike - a little strong i think. Jue fits immobilisers etc as part of his day to day, so should know what he's talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul jacobs Posted March 5, 2003 Author Share Posted March 5, 2003 Whoa, thanks to both Julian and Mike,as well as Steve and the rest of you. Lets not get too heavy about this, all advice is most appreciated so please don't anyone get too upset. Julian, I only have the one used ECU and the brand new immob'r and nothing will arm or disarm, or even flash the LED. If I can't find a matching pair, then I will probably go down the route suggested by the Mole [thanks Steve], as I will no doubt eventually upgrade anyway, I just wasn't planning to do it just yet 🙆🏻 Any other thoughts are most welcome, but especially if someone has a matched pair that is surplus to requirements Paul. Back in the fold with my new Black/Ali. 1600K Seven reg'n A7 YEP, looking good for spring take off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 There is no passive arming of the immobiliser commonly fitted to the 1.6 Eu2 ks. If the immobiliser can be made to switch off it will never switch on again, but if the immobiliser is not present the car will not start. Looks like Jue's wire snip is a fix for the immobiliser ever arming again, but he leaves it in the car. Are we all goign to play nicely now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Mine (not a 1.6) arms itself after a few mins. Thought this was a requirement of the Thatcham approval? Worcs L7 club joint AO.//Membership No. 4379//Azure Blue SLR No. 0077//Se7ens List Tours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_H Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Mine used to arm it’s self when it had its original 1999 ecu and immobiliser. When I upgraded them to SuperSport spec. (off of a 1997 Superlight??), this feature no longer worked. ☹️ Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Molloy Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Oh dear, looks like a "tongue-in-cheek" comment has backfired again. I thought that's what the smilies were for! 😬 Apologies to Julian for criticising his professional competence. I'm sure he hates Scotchloks as much as I do! Julian - please tell me what wire you cut to defeat the Rover security system. We would love to know if there is a glaring weakness! I should make it clear that my area of expertise is the immobiliser unit, NOT the Engine Management System. If it is true that you can buy a virgin EMS, swap it for the original, cut one wire and get the engine to start then I am amazed, and Rover should be worried! The lateral thinking employed by villains to circumvent security systems never fails to astonish me. It is amazing what you can do with a kit-kat wrapper or half a tennis ball! As detailed in my technical note, the passive arming is a selectable feature of the 5AS. You can also adjust the timeout value before it occurs. Mine (2002 model) came with the passive arming set (10 minute timeout). I just wound the time down, so it sets before I pull the FIA key. Even if the system is not armed, the MEMS code must be successfully communicated to the EMS after Ignition On for the engine to start. If you cut the comms wire I guess you would also have to leave Ign on permanently to the EMS to keep it hot. sforshaw - I don't know how an Emerald ECU deals with the MEMS code. If it knows that getting this code correctly means "OK you can start now", then you should be able to integrate the 5AS as per the standard Caterham fit. Mail me off line and I'll send you the connection details necessary. Andy Best - the 5AS with 2 connectors is a superlocking unit (later design). It is functionally compatable with the old unit. If you have the 5AS unit that was originally matched to your EMS, then I could read out the MEMS code and copy it to your new 5AS. What seems to be the problem with the old unit? Are you sure you don't just need a new RF remote (or battery?) Anybody from Rover or PTP out there who can tell me if it is possible to change the MEMS code in the EMS once it has been stored? Can a dealer do this (or even read out the old code)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted_7 Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 I have the same problem as Andy H. Passed recently to 1.6 SuperSport and since then, no more immobilser When I listen close i can hear a small "tick" when I press the button, but that's all. Is there a sequence to make with the remote to reactivate the immobiliser system ??? Se7enly, Ted_7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Molloy Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 If the SuperSport conversion still requires the MEMS code to start, then any change must be down to the immobiliser. Please try the following test and tell me what happens: Switch Ignition OFF, press the Lock button to arm the system and immobilise the vehicle. The Confidence Confirm Telltale (CCT) LED should flash at 8Hz for 10s then reduce to a continuous 1Hz rate (one flash per second). Switch Ignition ON without disarming the system. It should think the vehicle is being hot-wired go into alarm mode. The horn is not connected so all you will hear is the ticking of the relay. At this point the vehicle is still immobilised and should NOT start. The LED should be on continuously. Pressing either Lock or Unlock buttons should not have any effect. Now turn Ignition off and press the Unlock button. The system should disarm and the LED should go off. You should then be able to turn on Ignition and start the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Mike, I won't have V7 for the next Worcs meeting, but I'm hopeful for April. If you're about, and purely in the interests of science, I can show you the Emerald software for detecting the 5AS. You are able to leave the M3DK in either "needs immob signal" or "doesn't need immob signal" mode. In addition, you can change the immob and have the M3DK re-detect the new signal. Maybe you can show me how I can change the time-out feature on the 5AS then. I'd like it to auto-arm more quickly than it does if possible. Thanks. Nig. Worcs L7 club joint AO.//Membership No. 4379//Azure Blue SLR No. 0077//Se7ens List Tours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Incidentally Mike, do you know Dale Rogers at TRW? My friend, the other Mike (Evans) has got me in touch with Dale who is looking for a drummer. Since accepting the mission, I've not heard from him. Worcs L7 club joint AO.//Membership No. 4379//Azure Blue SLR No. 0077//Se7ens List Tours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Molloy Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 I could probably arrange an "ECU modification session" at the pub. Will need you to dismount and bring in the 5AS unit though. My crappy laptop battery won't handle much carpark action. I thought the SLR had a different immob, or is that the R500? Sure I know Dale. He is part of our software team. Do you need me to harangue him over gig dates or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Best Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Mike, I've sent an email, also the pub modification plan sounds good, best make it close to home though as you could end up being bought quite a few drinks. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackb_ms Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Hello Mike I will be very interested on how to reduce the time-out feature to a few seconds. I have aslo an master battery switch and it will just add up on the security side of thing I have a bog standard EMS from a 97 vvc engine Cheers Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Mike's one of our Worcs locals Andy. Sorry if that's not so local to you, but you're always welcome to come and join in the fun. We've been described as a bit extreme in the past as everyone appears to be modifying their engines at the moment. If we averaged out our horsepower I think we're all above 200bhp now. Mike, Dale and I have not actually met up yet. He was looking to continue the band, but I fear with the Summer-Se7ening-Fun fast approaching, any drumming time I may have may be eaten up. However, I'm still keen, if for no other reason to confirm that I am still the finest exponent of "Animalism" on the planet (muppet reference for those not aquanited). Worcs L7 club joint AO.//Membership No. 4379//Azure Blue SLR No. 0077//Se7ens List Tours Edited by - V7 SLR on 6 Mar 2003 18:00:23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Molloy Posted March 11, 2003 Share Posted March 11, 2003 I'd still *really* like to know how you can defeat the MEMS code by cutting one wire. Please let me into the secret... Julian? Pretty please! 😬 PS Fixed Andy Best's ECU (I hope). Next! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Molloy Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 Chomp, Chomp, Gulp... (Sound of me eating my hat...) 😬 If the immobiliser is DISARMED, it does appear that disconnecting the BATTERY (Brown wire to pin 26) will prevent it from passively re-arming. I quote from the 5AS product spec.: "Ignition Input This input is dioded to the battery input to act as an alternative means of providing power to the microprocessor should the main battery supply fail due to fuse blow etc. Under these circumstances, any outputs requiring ‘high power’ (i.e. CDL, superlock, hazard flash and energiser coil) will be inoperative, however the 5AS will still be capable of allowing the engine to start, provided that the battery supply was lost whilst the alarm was disarmed." When applied to a Rover tin-top this is a pretty heinous bodge, as you lose the security system features like central locking. HOWEVER, for the minimal Caterham application it could be a useful option if you want a "race only" system that doesn't need any remotes. I would prefer to endorse reprogramming the market options to select the "Alarm/Immobiliser Functions Disabled" state. Cutting a wire still does not solve the original problem, which was a system that would not disarm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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