Roll Bar Debate 2018

[JNC]

James,

It's a shame when I first started my thread a year or so ago you and the MT were so defensive of the rules ! Perhaps you didn't know as much as you appear to now, That may have been the case !! .

But from what you have written the club requires a FIA Rollbar that's clear but dose not require the bar to be used as an FIA Rollbar ? It is defiantly as clear as mud ! 

So basically it comes down to two bolts that have had their heads cut down to half thickness that may be the difference  !! If they have been fitted ! And a petty bar that makes it an FIA Rollbar can be left in the shed so it's now not FIA compliant ! What !! 

[Shortshift]

John

"So basically it comes down to two bolts that have had their heads cut down to half thickness that may be the difference  !!"

Err, no - somewhat more to it than that, as I thought my post (#123) made a reasonable attempt at explaining!

In general terms I'd advise not to get confused or hung-up by the FIA nomenclature.  As I have said, Caterham Cars use the terms FIA and Trackday fairly loosely; look in their online store and you'll see what I mean.  It's not the Club's responsibility to determine how Caterham Cars name and list their products! 

And there's nothing new in my explanation - this is the rule that has been in place for more than twenty years and it's really very simple in practice (and, once again, all described on the Club's website: linkything). 

In essence, the 1996 rule boils-down to requiring the use of the reinforced rollover bar type that can be most readiiy identified by the presence of either one or two diagonal braces.  If you buy this from Caterham Cars it might be called a trackday bar or it might be called an FIA bar (their call, not ours).  And you can use this on a Club trackday either with or without the Petty strut.  Simples...

I do hope, John, that we will see you at a Club trackday in 2018 whether as a visitor (come and grab some passenger laps - members are always more than happy to take people out) or as a participating driver.  Trackday activity is - pleasingly - once again seen as a core Club activity, with more than 230 Club members participating as drivers in last year's programme - a sizeable and growing proportion of total Club membership.  As is often the case, things tend to snap into focus and are easier to appreciate when you see and experience them in reality rather than from behind a keyboard.

James

[SLR No.77]

John, are you determined to make it more complicated than it is ...

There are fundamentally two types of bar, ones with diagonal brace(s), ones without. The ones with braces were FIA accredited for competition use, albeit with the Petty strut and various figment requirements.

The club's position is that an "FIA bar" must be fitted for use on track days run by the club. It does not state that it must be FIA compliant (Petty strut fitted, correct bolts, all bolts fitted) which is entirely different, it purely requires that the car has an "FIA bar". Neither does it require that competition level scrutineering will be perform for track days, this is down to the individual participitant to self assess their own car and ability although advice and recommendations are given.

In the light of recent changes to the non-FIA/track day bars being offered by Caterham it is time for some external analysis to be done, the latest non-FIA/trackday bars may offer substantially more protection than the older ones. This has now been arranged, a positive move by the MT, and we must await and accept the outcome.

Stu.

[Shaun_E]

There is one point that keeps being raised which I have to take issue with.

It's not about whether the normal bar is on a par with the half FIA bar.  It is about whether the normal bar is suitable.  BookaTrack and every other professional track day organiser consider it suitable. 

No track day organiser considers any roll bar suitable - none of them mandate any form of rollover protection at all unless you are running slicks in which case a number of TDOs mandate a cage (I'd have to find their T&Cs to get the exact wording). So the TDOs are making no judgment on suitability of any bar. You can remove your rollover bar completely and still take part.

This makes the clubs decision a simple one and entirely dependent on the comparative test results. There is no absolute standard to meet but simply a comparison between the FIA bar (without petty strut) and any other bar. The result of the comparison will determine the clubs decision along with legal advice on any proposed rule change.

BaT T&Cs ref running slicks:

14. If you are using your own vehicle at a BookaTrack.com Event then it is only permitted to use road tyres unless fitted with MSA approved type roll-over protection. If a Caterham type vehicle then it must have a full FIA approved roll-cage and if a saloon or hatchback car then it must have a half or full roll-cage.

 

[Shortshift]

Can I push the virtual 'like button' for Stu Forshaw's post (# 128) above?

James

[AndrewB]

I think the bigger issue is the legal one.  How should L7C word it's trackday entry / disclaimers such that the MT and everyone associated with trackdays are free from civil or criminal actions.  It must be possible as other trackday organisers manage it.

The data comparison between bar A and bar B will be interesting but possibly pointless as the preceding 10-15 posts have shown that there are a plethora of different types and styles.  Therefore if bar A is shown to protect the driver in a crash but bar B doesn't, where does that leave everyone who has bar types C, D, E, F.......  or, are MIRA testing every connotation of bar?  What if it shows the petty strut must be used?  Also, will we all now need to get CC to give us a certificate to say that our bars are XXmm diameter and XXmm steel thickness etc.

[Wrightpayne]

I did wonder if we could end up with more restrictive / tighter rules on what bars are acceptable !

Ian

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Ian (Wightpane)

I wondered not about rollover bars but about how other rules might read.

• Stu Forshaw (in particular) has made a case for mandating sufficient clearance between the top of the head and the rollover bar.
• I'm astonished that we do not mandate wearing a harness (quite possibly a six point) rather than inertia reel lap and diagonal.

It strikes me that this pressure for allowing non-braced rollover bars has emphasised the other aspects of safety. 

[JNC]

James No you can't simples.       

[CharlesElliott]

I'll wait to see the report, I hope it covers a more holistic safety view (e.g. presence of padding or not, seats and headrest, helmet required, distance between helmet and top of cage). The strength of a bar is just one factor and maybe not the one most likely to be the cause of injury.

[john aston]

It doesn't matter what you get people to sign , you cannot evade criminal liability - eg a HSE prosecution . More nuanced re civil liability - basic rule is that you cannot get anybody effectively to waive their rights to take legal action in respect of injury if caused by your negligence . Nothing new - law has said effectively the same for decades - but , of course , society tends to be more litigious and insurance companies , after paying out , tend to go after whoever they can show caused the loss .

 

So don't fall for that old saw 'you are here at your own risk'- it is rarely so 

[AndrewB]

In construction the HSE are only now concerned with risks outside of the expected norms.  e.g. years ago we used to have to write designer risk assessments to tell the electricians to be careful or they may get an electric shock!  Thankfully we no longer have to turn out standard forms for working at height, working with electricity or working below ground.  What we can now spend our time doing is looking at the things that would not be the norm, e.g. working on a chandelier weighing 250kg and mounted 30m above the ground etc.  It is far better for us and the contractor that we focus on the unusual risks.  

So back to trackdays.  The normal risk at a trackday is that you may crash and roll.  It is also a risk that you may be hit by someone else crashing or indeed just being a moron.  You may lose a wheel or indeed be hit by someone else loosing a wheel.  So whilst I am no expert (now there's a word which carries a lot of legal ramifications), is it more important for L7C and indeed all of us that we look for the unusual risks.  e.g. There is one 620 on track with everyone else in a 160, or, there is one new driver whilst everyone else has done 50 trackdays and there cars look like they are from mad max.  The roll bar is suddenly not the issue as there are other aspects which have a higher risk and higher severity in the case of an accident.

The buddy system and novice / intermediate / experienced sessions are clearly good at mitigating the unusal risks I highlighted which is great, but then the trackdays are not always run that way.

Again, all of the above is more to do with understanding the legal position of running trackdays than the roll bar issue.

[AndrewB]

John A, where do you perceive the clubs negligence to be if they follow the industry norm of only insisting on a cage when slicks are used?  

Is it possible for L7C to speak to BaT or the Lotus on Track people and ask them if they have taken legal advice and if so what was it.  It may be that those organisations would not want to get involved as once you give advice (even verbally) you become liable to a claim or part of a claim.

Andrew

[Shortshift]

"...the industry norm of only insisting on a cage when slicks are used? "

Err - not an industry norm as far as I know!!

James

[RogNeedham]

First a belated Happy New Year!

It is indeed worth re-emphasising that the decision will be taken considering BOTH the study to which James has referred, AND the legal implications as John Aston has briefly noted above.

The entire Club MT, also comprising the Directors of the Limited Company that underpin our track day activities, take these issues extremely seriously. We want as many of our members to enjoy our track day programme in a safe and convivial atmosphere and hope that as the final report is prepared, you can hold on for a few days longer.

To ensure that all Club members are informed of such key decisions in a fair and timely manner, it is customary for any post on Blatchat to coincide with LowFlying landing on doorsteps.

Thanks once again for what should always be a lively and thought provoking debate.

Regards

Rog

General Secretary

 

[Jim 123]

Is there any consensus that we should be agreed on finding and delivering a series of solutions to ensure that all paying Club Members can participate in Track Days?

My car is FIA compliant.  However it does not sit comfortably with me that the many Members who have Standard Roll Bars are denied participation in Club Track Days.

Or, is a solutions-focussed mentality not part of our culture? (Absolutely no dig intended to anyone re this last point, but I believe the question needs airing).

 

[Shortshift]

As this thread is now attracting a lot of relevant comment and content, it seems appropriate for me to confirm here that the rollover bar question is not the only trackday safety issue that the Management Team has been evaluating. 

Once the outcome of the rollover bar evaluation is published, I will also be releasing a summary of the Club's revised trackday safety requirements and recommendations.  This will address several of the points raised in this thread.

These updated requirements  and recommendations will apply from the start of the 2018 trackday season.  As I'm planning to open up the first event (Silverstone GP circuit; Monday 19th March) for bookings by mid-January, two months ahead of the event, you can see that quite a lot will be happening over the coming weeks.

Make sure that Monday 19th March is in your diaries...

James

[john aston]

Andrew - negligence claims are founded , essentially , on a breach of the duty of care X owes to Y, in respect of foreseeable events . What that duty involves is not set in a tablet of stone , but is decided on a case by case basis,  taking account of all the circumstances .

The fact that some track day companies don't insist on FIA bars , or cages ,  is relevant in any claim , of course , but isn't  definitive.   You raise an interesting point though - unfortunately, whilst considering potential track days issues some time ago (before the bar debate and when I was still on MT ) , I did attempt to engage  with the track day operators'  association and received not even an acknowledgement and gave up after several reminders . I also failed to get a response from a couple of TDOs I contacted....

BTW , once you give advice you do not become automatically liable. You may  do so- but , as ever with legal stuff , it depends .....

[AndrewB]

It is very interesting to discuss but only a lawyer could advise and even then only a court could decide.  It does make me wonder though what duty of care do L7C owe it's paid participants which seemingly other TDO's not owe their paid participants?  

It's a shame they didn't help but then again maybe they see L7C as competition and quite like the specific roll bar requirement as it drives business their way. 

[Ian B]

As this thread is now attracting a lot of relevant comment and content, it seems appropriate for me to confirm here that the rollover bar question is not the only trackday safety issue that the Management Team has been evaluating. 

Once the outcome of the rollover bar evaluation is published, I will also be releasing a summary of the Club's revised trackday safety requirements and recommendations.  This will address several of the points raised in this thread.

These updated requirements  and recommendations will apply from the start of the 2018 trackday season.  As I'm planning to open up the first event (Silverstone GP circuit; Monday 19th March) for bookings by mid-January, two months ahead of the event, you can see that quite a lot will be happening over the coming weeks!

Oh dear, I do hope this doesn't herald the introduction of a new set of rules that, similar to the 1996 roll bar rule, will shackle the Club for decades to come, and in the future will lead to statements like "we can't go back on this because we may be seen to be relaxing safety standards and will become personally liable".

Edited to add the bold highlighting above is an automatic "feature" of this forum, and not my emphasis 

[john aston]

Ian - do give it a rest will you ? Everything gets reviewed and sometimes updated. By all accounts James is dong a cracking job on trackdays - let him get on with it please rather than constantly sniping. 

[Tomiam]

Well... at least this thread will get the annual roll bar discussion out of the way for 2018...

[TomB]

....roll on 2019. 

[Shortshift]

Be a shame not to hit 5,000 reads before knocking this one on the head, though (standing at 4,853 as I write)...

James

[DJ.]

I agree with Ian, the club already has the most prescriptive rules for track days of any provider in the UK, and reading between the lines, I suspect we'll be moving further down that path.

I still consider trackdays to be no more likely to be dangerous than spirited road driving.

Duncan