OliW Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Firstly, thanks to those who have made proposals. I think that Richard's socring proposal has the most merit. The method has many advantages and few disadvantages that I can see.The only issue with it in practice would be where the second placed competitor in a class is really uncompetitive, i.e. it might be a super quick driver vs a novice, therefore making maximum points easy to come by for the winner. To combat that, the maximum score that is acheieveable would have to be limited to 100 if the second placed competitor in class is unable to get within a particular distance of the winner.Oli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted November 17, 2015 Area Representative Share Posted November 17, 2015 Oli,I really struggled with a suitable maximum score!If the maximum score is too low, it does not reflect good performance (against strong competition)If the maximum score is too high, then it can give an unrealistically high score against weak competition...I guess the real answer lies in the class structure to ensure that there are sufficient competitive entries in a small enough number of classes. I we have too many classes, we risk having poorly supported classes.For the first few years that I compete in the clubs events (from 2002), there were just six classes, and we'd see full 80 car entries for both Curborough events each year. It was common place to see over 20 entries in both classes 2&3 (which, essentially, had very similar technical regulations to the last few seasons). Class 4 was also pretty popular because, using list 1a tyres with no other restriction, it mirrored the requirements to compete in other championships (namely the HSA series or the Midland Hillclimb championship)We're now lucky to see 60 entries at our Curborough events, and significantly less at others. Maybe just 5 classes would be more appropriate with these reduced numbers? (but as classes 1,2 &3 remain the best supported, maybe some of the other classes should be amalgamated?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon.Rogers Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I am 100% behind Mark's scoring for the overall.Plain and simple to understand - its worked in the past when we reset the records. This time it has the added Curborough countback also.Keep things simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I have always been a proponent of scoring based upon records as it really has produced IMO the correct winner of the overall championship every year...My concern about resetting them, is that1. When we moved to records based system, we had 5-6 years of reliable data to base it on.2. We now add the risk of having some soft records in some classes that may skew results in the future.I am usure how to resolve that matterCouple of questions maybe to Mark and the others...1. Is the intention to run without records for a period of time before re-introducing them.2. How do we deal with the scenario where an event has had wet conditions during that time. (the same discussion we had all those years back).3. Will the curborough count back work on your best #1 score and then onto your best #2 score? I think if the latter it should also incentivise curborough entries which is a good thing.Also I am against penalising people just because they are running in a class where there are lower numbers. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david nelson Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I have felt that a record based overall champion has been a positive step from the old scoring system. We are now in a period that we can not use our records due to changes in the tyres. I would hope we can return to a record based championship after a few years. I see the only obstacle be what happens with the F rating in road going classes in the future. I can see just as we set a date to return to records say 3 years we will find that e rated tyres are too slow. This will effect all running a539 list 1a tyres as they are f rated.it is due to the above that we must use a simple effective scoring system and one that we all feel comfortable with. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliW Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 I don't agree that record based scoring is preferable because it is too open to other factors. I think that Richard's method would knock out the vagaries of future rule changes as well as weather factors etc, as long as the winner of each class is rewarded correctly according to the level of competition they face.I also prefer it to the next best method in my opinion, which is Mark's, which would more likely produce a tie even with the countback. Most of our classes have the potential for someone to win 7 or 8 events including both Curboroughs.Richard's method means that class records can remain in place, but they become less significant. The possibility of being in the title hunt and then finding your final counting event is going to be wet, for example, would be pretty unsatisfactory.The benefits of this method are:One set of scores for class and overall, which are fairly easily calculated.No unrealisticly high scores due to a lack of competitionNo more failure to recognise good performances in difficult conditions.All events feature in the overall championship (instead of just 7 last season).New events can be put on the calendar without impacting the overall championship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon.Rogers Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Looking to the future when records have been set again and are relevant.Driver 1 wins every event all year. Smashes every record but is the only car in the class throughout the year.Driver 2 wins periodically with tough competition during the year but wins class without break or getting anywhere near the records.Who is the better driver.This is why we introduced records for the overall and only the overall championship.I think whichever system is adopted for the next couple of years as soon as it is possible to return to records based overall it is a must.Next year records in my opinion can not be retained.I used to compete on Yoko 1b "soft" tyres and swapped to the then best tyre which was an acb10.Straight up 2.7 sec gain at Llandow. Back to back on the same day.I think you underestimate the difference in super soft to medium compounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david nelson Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 the year I won the championship I only drove as fast as I needed to. No records that I can remember. Having records to go for gives you a focus if you are going for the championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliW Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 Simon - I think with Richard's proposed method that driver 1 would not be the overall winner because he/she would not be able to score more than 100 points at each event unless they have good competition. If they compete on their own then they can't score more than 100 at each event and, equally, as I propose, if the competition is not close enough (say within 99%) then no more than 100 can be scored.The biggest drawback actually will probably be the headaches that Mr B would suffer trying to calculate it all! Maybe simplicity would be better.David - I reckon you probably tried quite hard that year, and does it matter that you only drive as quickly as you need to? I don't think anyone would be put off going for records regardless of scoring method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 IMO - we should do everything in our power to have 1 overall winner. I found it very unsatisfactory the year we had 3 winners - no disrespect to any of the 3... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Miller 7 Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 I'd be firmly behind Mark's scoring system. It would however be possible in the event of a tie for the overall, to use the old records. Class 1 and 2 are easy as there is not change to the cars or tyres. For 3, 4, 5 and 6 we could use % away from the old records as opposed to % you beat them by. Should be simple enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliW Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 Right, I've done some personal calculations using RIchard's proposed method and historic scoring and am less sure it would work to reward the best driver in the championship, since some classes are not so well supported and it begins to get overly complicated when trying to find a way to make it work. Ultimately, everyone needs to understand and be on board with the scoring method for the overall.I therefore wonder whether Mark's proposed method could be used whilst incorporating Chris's proposal to limit the points available in lesser supported classes? The challenge then is to get all of the classes to be popular so that some drivers don't miss out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leg Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 I really think that the scoring issue is being overthought - the club has probably the best and fairest scoring system I have come across in a club.Until a few years ago there was no special criteria to determine the overall champion, you just competed in your class and got as many points as possible. The first year I competed this led to one clear winner - the second year three people shared the overall. Would it really matter if for one year, until new records are established, there was more than one winner?More importantly, please don't introduce a system based on numbers of people to turn up in a class - we have just finaly managed to do away with the 'points for buddies' in the HSA series. It had got to the stage where the series was being decided by the extra points people got because they were from a larger class - it really doesnt work as an idea.Lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliW Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 All good points Lynn. I think I'm coming towards my final view on this topic - i.e. Mark's proposal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 My only concern with Marks proposal is that (and maybe it is somewhat of an edge case)Competitor A turns up in class with one competitor does 8 rounds (including the 2 curbs) scores maximum every round and the curbs. However is quite slow in comparison to the performance of vehicle. However now he/she is champion, are we happy with that...Depending on how the class structure pans out this is maybe a slight possibility, so maybe there shoud be a rule of at least 2 (or some other number) competitors in class for it to count for overall... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliW Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 That is a potential issue for sure, which also concerns me. But I guess it's not that likely is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon.Rogers Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Thats why this is only a temp overall method and if it happens it happens. Won't be right but how else can it be done.Lets all have a vote after the end of the season and before the awards evening (a secret ballot). Then no one will know until the night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Follow up question on scoring and records...For classes that don't get a material change, possibly just 1,2 and 7 will we keep the historical records for when/if we return to a records based scoring for overall. ISTR old class 6/7 records where still kept through the last round of changes (see simon beating brodies very old curb record this year)Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team robj Posted November 19, 2015 Leadership Team Share Posted November 19, 2015 As yet nobody has spoken up for Alan's suggestion, which I can see as being fair and keeping us close to the current system (which I think is very good), I would like to:For the classes where there are no change in regulations, the records remain with the exception of venues where tyre warming was previously allowed, in which case we should ask the competitors (who have entered THAT event) by poll if they think the records should be recalculated. Elsewhere in the unchanged classes they should remain.The temporary estimated records in the Classes with tyre regulation changes and no tyre warming could be calculated after each event by increasing the existing record by the average percentage increase in time (relative to their PB’s) of at least two competitors who have competed in that class at that venue for at least 3 years. If there is insufficient data to this at a venue then either the event is not included in the overall for all classes (as now) or a Comp Sec record is put in place (estimated in the fairest way the Comp Sec can find). This will obviously only work on dry events (so events would have to be declared wet if everybody did not get a minimum number of dry runs), but the overall score on wet events is not relevant anyway. This will not detract from the event on the day as the class results will not be affected. This will speed up the process of establishing records in the unknowns. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon.Rogers Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Rob MAll classes will be affected next year as the Speed Committee have already decided that all tyre warming will be banned from 2016. The MSA are doing this for 2017 anyway so we may as well get all the things affecting records out of the way this year.The committee has not decided on the reset of the records. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team robj Posted November 19, 2015 Leadership Team Share Posted November 19, 2015 Hi Simon,I know you were replying to Rob, but there are several venues (this season I think they were Goodwood, Hethel, Llandow, Llys-y-fran, Blyton and both Anglesey events) where tyre warming has not been allowed, and hence are not affected, I realise some of these are new courses but the times form this year (if dry could be used to start defining a record)Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Simon - thanks for that I wasn't aware of a blanket reg change....Personally making an estimation has so many variables for it to be hard to workable an befair across all the venues classes etc IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gill E Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 I am a bear with a very little brain but I think thatAlan's proposal is too complicated.it isn't fair to limit the number of points someone can be awarded based on the number of people in their class competing on the day.if the records need to be reset for some classes they should be reset for all classes, otherwise it penalises those in the affected classes.I'm off to go and throw sticks into the stream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon.Rogers Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Lets throw them at someone or some organization instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliW Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 Who could you possibly mean Simon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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