Duratec won't start.

[Jonathan Kay]

I'd inspect and clean all the relevant connections, both live and earths, as you say.

But with those symptoms and that cranking voltage I'd also experiment with a series of starts with and without an external battery. Ideally that would be a jump start with the donor vehicle running at 3,000 rpm. A randomised sequence would be good but alternating will probably be easier. Does it make the starting reliable and what's the cranking voltage?

Jonathan

[simon_h]

I take it you have the EU5 French version of the car with electric throttle and the 'Lotus' ECU? The whine, if you do, is the throttle.

If so dont pay too much attention to any MBE wiring directions as they are fairly different.

Is the dash the same as the superlight with the rows of rounds switches? If you do then the start position of the key starter isnt connected to anything at all but you do have to put the key into position 2 before anything will work.

Ignition and start are then all off the start button.

The Aces lights sound like they have been left at half max revs (7200rpm) for setting up and never changed.

The left light is for a shift down indicator, never really used I understand.

If you have a UK car on MBE then probably ignore all this as I havent had a proper look at those.

[Expat]

1/. "No start" is random, but has occured on each trip (only 4 so far).

2/. Battery is new. Banner 12 V, 30 Ah, 300 A. What sort of voltages should be expected from this battery?

3/. Will try jump start from tintop (85 Ah battery, but has only seen 3000 rpm a couple of times as is a diesel) when weather cools down a bit. It was 41 degrees at lunchtime and is still nearly 30 as I write. I can only manage about ten minutes tinkering in these conditions.

4/ simon_h: I think you have hit the nail on the head. Car is certainly French and EU5 sounds about right. Do you have any ideas as to why it sometimes refuses to start?

Dashboard looks like this except switch 6 "Sport" mode is missing:

/sites/default/files/images/users/6502/medium_Capture.PNG

[simon_h]

That dash looks to be a 485 dash, they get the sport button.

Cant say for definite any ideas as to why it has the intermitent 'non starting' but I cant remember if the immobiliser does the fuel pump or not. I'm fairly sure it only cuts supply to the coil and injectors

If it is only random and if you get a pump prime but wont fire then I would think about checking the power feed connections to the coil and injectors at the engine to chassis loom. Also if you dont have one get the LED fitted as it may just be the immobiliser is being a sod to turn off.

They do take a fairly long crank to start as well so dont expect it to just be a stab of the starter and it goes.

There is one good thing, being EU5 the ECU has diagnostics enabled so you can check with a scan tool if is running ok and for any fault codes.

 

[Jonathan Kay]

Only problem that I'm aware of is failure to start on some occasions.

Does it crank at normal speed and not fire or does it not crank?

2/. Battery is new. Banner 12 V, 30 Ah, 300 A. What sort of voltages should be expected from this battery?

Lots of sources say minimum of 9.6V while cranking. But there's a problem on some 7s of the ECU dropping out and cuttting the ignition even though there's enough oomph to spin the engine at what sounds like adequate speed.

Using an additional external source means that the voltage won't drop so much at the same current. 

That's why I try to persuade everyone to get more data on this...

Jonathan

[Expat]

Sorry if picture legend is unreadable. Picture shows dashboard of Seven 485/ Superlight R400. If you remove the SPORT switch then you have got mine.

Engine cranks every time and fuel pump comes on with the ignition (First push of START button).

The problem is that sometimes it wont start even though cranked for three or four seconds. Last time I had the problem the engine started, in about half a second, on the fourth attempt and then ran perfectly.

There has never been a problem once the engine is running. This would suggest battery, although I cannot see why it fires after several attempts when the battery voltage must be low, but what is the solution? There doesn't seem to be room for a bigger one!

[simon_h]

The T6 ECU can cope with down to about 5.5v so that shouldnt affect it. I would suggest immobiliser, either connections or just not off properly.

[tbird]

JK the trouble with doing "A randomised sequence would be good but alternating will probably be easier " is that if you are doing them all at once you are weakening your installed battery all the time, so as you progress you are more likely to get failures, if you can fit a battery with a bit more oomph for a while and use car normally , if you don't get the problem its likely to be battery or dodgey connections, battery to starter motor or starter motor earth .  

Tim

[tbird]

double post deleted

[Jonathan Kay]

Yes, that confuses it, but I think it might still pin it down. The power of the method also depends on the failure (to start) rate. If that's low it's much harder to know what's causing what. But who am I telling about intermittent faults? ;-)

The thing that would really help is an external power supply to the ECU that doesn't drop its voltage with cranking. An external battery and bit of temporary wiring could provide that.

But if the ECU is immune anyway as simon_h says that line is irrelevant... if we were measuring at the ECU rather than the battery. I don't that think the drop on that circuit would be that high without an awful connection, and Expat's going to check those already.

Jonathan

[tbird]

yep, and not helped by space, just had a trawl through batteries and there doesn't seem to be a more powerful one easily available in same dimensions :-( 

I suppose if once it fails it usualy takes 5 or 6 attempts you could carry a chunky battery in boot, fully charged, next time it happens jump from battery and see if it fires first time, kinda of down to desperation ideas now,

 Just had a very similar problem on Discovery but that had noticeably slower cranking when hot, new starter motor fixed that, and I had space to stick two batteries under the bonnet for diagnostics .  Much easier :-)

Tim

 

[Jonathan Kay]

I suppose if once it fails it usualy takes 5 or 6 attempts you could carry a chunky battery in boot, fully charged, next time it happens jump from battery and see if it fires first time, kinda of down to desperation ideas now, 

How about one of those lithium cell starter things?

Jonathan

[tbird]

was wondering about a power pack myself

Expat one thing nobody has asked (just clutching around at straws at the moment.  Has this ever happened on first start with cold engine, or is it always when engine/engine compartment  is hot. 

if it never happens with cold engine it would tend to suggest battery ok

and just a simple one, do you always disengage clutch when starting, might give you an extra few millivolts.

Tim

[Expat]

Maybe I'll invest in power pack. Sounds a much neater solution than a great big battery. I see that Amazon USA wont ship outside the states, but Amazon France do it for 129.90 Euros.

To answer a question: Non starting happens with engine both hot and cold.  Haven't tried disengaging the clutch, but will try this next time I have a problem.

Any ideas as to where I can get hold of a wiring diagram? Also photo showing where each component is installed. All the ones I have (from Internet and elsewhere) are similar but not quite right!

Also pinout of ECU connector. A separate power supply could be the answer. Oh, and just where is the immobiliser? And how is it wired into the loom? etc. etc....

 

[Jonathan Kay]

Did you see that Abbot's is also in France? :-)

Please tell us everything you can about your model and spec, date, engine and ECU,  and we'll see what diagrams are available.

Jonathan

[Expat]

Abbot is somewhere near Paris I think. Paris is nearly 900 km away. It's like London to Manchester back to London and then back to Manchester again!

Car is 2012 Superlight R300, simon-h (post #27) tells me all that I know.

If VIN is any help it's SDKLDF3D612670948. Let me know if engine numbers are any use and I'll post a photo of the plate that tells all tomorrow.

[Jonathan Kay]

I've tried to send you a Private Mail but the system says there's a problem.

I have the 2012 and 2014 Assembly Guides but the wiring diagrams in those cover "Sigma" and R400". And all the ones I've seen from that era are highly schematic.

Have you checked the Caterham site?

Does anyone have anything better?

T6 pinouts.

Jonathan

[Expat]

Curiouser and curiouser. As someone once said.

With much maneuvering got the two cars into position (side by side but head to tail) for jump start.

Commenced operations by trying to start the Seven with no external assistance. Started first go! Did another four starts using the Banner battery only and gave up as, obviously, this was not going to prove anything except that the battery is OK.

I have cleaned two or three earths and taken a few connectors apart and sprayed them with contact cleaner.

ECU has Lotus badge stamped on it but no other apparent markings. Can't get the battery tray off to reveal more ECU as one fixing screw covered by hose. Nothing is impossible but I would rather avoid a major dismantling if possible. Said ECU appears to have three multiway connectors which doesn't tie up with the information I now have (Thank you JK).

Guess I'll just have to continue cleaning earths and connectors and keep my fingers crossed

I would still like to know a bit more about the immobiliser. Does anybody have any info. Like where is it? And how is it wired in?

.

[CA Sevener]

Expat - thanks for starting this thread, I came across it this weekend and can attest that my car has exactly the same symptoms.

I have an EU5 spec CSR175 which ran perfectly for the first 2k miles and then started exhibiting difficult starting. Hot or cold, you never know whether it will start first time. Generally if it does not, you can wait a minute or so and it will eventually fire up. Once running it is perfect, and checking the plugs, color is text book, so no fuel starvation etc.

I have posted details of all my diagnostics on my blog here, and there are several entries that I am sure you will find useful:

Here, here (including links to wiring diagrams), here, here and here.

You have the same Lotus branded 3 plug ECU that I do. It is an OEM version of an Italian made EFI unit and it says it should be good down to 7v supply voltage. I think the pin outs are on their web page. As Simon_h stated, electronic throttle.

I have the immobilizer LED on the dash, although my dash is a standard one, and it certainly pulls in per the other comments made here. The starting sequence I have noted is as follows:

1) turn key to position II - immobilizer LED goes from slow flash to on, main and fuel pump relays click in, buzzing from electronic throttle and if all good the fuel pump primes (if the fuel pump does not prime, then the car will not start later)

2) switch off immobilizer - you can hear the click and the LED shuts off. If the immobilizer is not switched off the car will not crank

3) crank the engine by either turning the key to position III or pressing the red start button (there is a recent Caterham workshop note disabling the position III cranking action, but I have not implemented this as I do not think this is the cause)

4) if fuel pump primed engine catches right away. cranking voltage ~10.3-10.6V (I am using an Odyssey PC680 battery)

So, I have narrowed this down to the fuel pump not priming. I have checked all the wiring, swapped relays, checked the ECU diagnostic codes, but found nothing. As earlier, once the engine fires, it works great.

Since the fuel pump is controlled via the relay with the ECU, it could be an ECU issue. I do not know why the ECU would work perfectly one trip and not the next. Perhaps the wait period resets it in some way. I had an intermittent ignition switch, but have replaced that, thanks to Derek.

Or there is some connection issue with the immobilizer. I have checked the earth and it is connected firmly to the windscreen wiper motor bracket. But it would be useful to know how the immobilizer is wired in. I do not think it is easy to bypass however, since I believe it works by recognizing the tear drop key fob, then sending a matched code to the ECU allowing it to operate. But the engine cranks when it is switched off, so it seems to be working OK.

I hope this will help the discussion, because, like you, I am looking for a solution...

Mark

[Jonathan Kay]

Very interesting. I haven't had a chance to read it all yet.

How about installing a wire from the fuel pump feed terminal back to a voltmeter in the cockpit so that you can see what it's getting every time you try to start? And if it shows variability there then working back upstream using the same approach, preferably with two meters?

Jonathan

[simon_h]

Mark,

For info really,

The Euro8 ecu does look the same and has the same plugs but it is not the same. It is a full race ecu. The T6 doesnt have the same wide band lambda or twin ETB controllers.

The T6 is a unique ecu to Lotus, if you need to find a pin-out all I can suggest is you look in the direction of the Evora, that will be as close as you will find in the public domain.

Unless you are very unlucky I doubt the ecu is at fault, it is most likely to be a bad connection or earth somewhere.

The ecu doesnt take any signal from the immobiliser.

[Jonathan Kay]

The T6 is a unique ecu to Lotus, if you need to find a pin-out all I can suggest is you look in the direction of the Evora, that will be as close as you will find in the public domain.

Is that link I added in post #42 not relevant?

Thanks

Jonathan

 

 

[simon_h]

Sorry, but no.

Didnt spot the link.

[Expat]

Well, it gets worse really. Lots of things to check, but it looks like the fuel pump or the electrical feed to it  is the probable culprit.

Marc: Nice to know I'm not alone with this problem. Makes one feel less isolated! Looks as though you have done all the hard work I just have to follow in your  footsteps.

Had the same problem with the heater as you had (it was 38 degrees in the shade when I picked the car up!). Haven't fixed it yet but there is enough slack in the system to shut valve from under the bonnet.

JK: Checking voltage at pump is a good idea. Much more reliable than listening. Looking forward to build instructions. Many thanks in advance

[Jonathan Kay]

You should have the Guide by email already...

Jonathan