Logan Colbeck Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 My new Duratec 175 (1500miles and only two weeks old) seems to have its cooling fan on permanently. Anyone had similar experience and know where to find the means to increase the high temperature set point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted May 18, 2015 Member Share Posted May 18, 2015 Is this controlled straight off the sensor or via the ECU?What happens when you disconnect the sensor?Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomwood Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Hi Logan,mines a couple years old and seems to be the same as you describe. The standard thermostat (Ford presumably) is a 90 degree one I believe. I suspect this may be close to the fan cut-in temperature, presumably as set within the ECU. Mine seems to cut in almost without fail as soon as I come to a standstill. It may even be running sometimes when I'm on the move, hard to tell with all the noise!you can buy an 82 degree thermostat and replace the one that's on it. That's certainly what I'm planning to do when I get the chance. Will mean the thermostat opens earlier and hopefully you'll not hit the fan cut in temps so regularly.Can't remember off the top of my head who supplies the 82 degree thermostats. I'm sure someone better informed will be along shortly though. Also have a search of the archives as this has definitely come up before if you're after an urgent fix.Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomwood Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Sorry, meant to say that the 82 degree thermostat is a Cosworth part I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative IanW Posted May 19, 2015 Area Representative Share Posted May 19, 2015 Hi Logan,I had a similar problem about 4 years ago. I returned to Caterham South for their engineer to tweak the ECU setting as there was a mismatch with the thermostat or temperature sender.Regards, Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Colbeck Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 Thank you all for your input. I will be in touch with Caterham South in the morning as Ian suggests as I too believe that the ECU controls this parameter and will need a laptop to adjust it. Grateful none the less for each observation which collectively have enabled me to get to know the water circuit in more detail. I will post the result of my contact with Caterham. Logan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damo V Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 Please do let us know how you get on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Colbeck Posted May 27, 2015 Author Share Posted May 27, 2015 I am booked into Crawley CC 1100hrs on Friday 29th May. I will gather all of the technical datavIbcan and report back. Logan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerobod - near CYYC Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 One area to have them look at is the calibration of the temperature sensor curve stored in the ECU.I can't view the curve in the encrypted map in my Caterham MBE 992 ECU, but the reported temperature via the Easimap dashboard when the fan is running seems to be 15C higher than the temperature sensor is really measuring (that is the ECU is showing 95C when the sensor is measuring 80C, the displayed and measured values both seem to be the same at 10C when the engine is cold), causing the fan to activate at a too low temperature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Colbeck Posted May 29, 2015 Author Share Posted May 29, 2015 Feedback from my visit to Crawley today. I drove the car down in the morning and arrived at 0945, about two hours earlier than planned. I was seen within minutes by Paul and technician and Caterham racer, Lee. They hooked up the car to a laptop via the wired-in diagnostic terminal and, with the engine still running brought up the water cooling circuit mimic. This was a multi-icon display which included engine rpm, induced draft fan status and water temperature gauge. The fan could be seen switching on and off every 30 seconds or so, as the water temperature varied between a low of 96 degrees centigrade (off), and a high of 98 degrees centigrade (on). Thus the fan is modulating within a temperature envelope of only two degrees. Lee confirmed that these are the design conditions for a Duratec engine, and that it did not need to be adjusted. Clearly, whilst in motion and at speed, the air flow over the radiator is designed to keep the water temperature at or about 96 degrees centigrade. The operating manual says that normal is between 90 degrees centigrade and 100 degrees centigrade. My engine is maintained at or about 96 degrees centigrade (the gauge is difficult to read accurately) when travelling in steady state conditions on a motorway.So there we have it. A design envelope of two degrees centigrade means that the fan will cut in almost as soon as air flow falls, or, of course as soon as load increases to produce more heat.Grateful for more comment and, of course for those given so far. And really superb response from the team at Crawley!Logan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted May 29, 2015 Member Share Posted May 29, 2015 Thanks for the update: very useful data.Isn't there an unresolved discussion somewhere about cooling a Duratec in the USA?Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy69 Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 That's really interesting! According to my temp gauge fan comes on at around 80 and only really comes on after a prolonged que in traffic. However I do know of a few others that seem to have their fan running whenever they stop. Normal op temp is around 75 and steady at blatting speeds.I'll stick it on the laptop when i get the chance and see what my ECU tells me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy69 Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 That's really interesting! According to my temp gauge fan comes on at around 80 and only really comes on after a prolonged que in traffic. However I do know of a few others that seem to have their fan running whenever they stop. Normal op temp is around 75 and steady at blatting speeds.I'll stick it on the laptop when i get the chance and see what my ECU tells me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerobod - near CYYC Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 Bearing in mind that my car is the R400 210bhp Duratec and from what I can tell has the 82C thermostat, the following are my findings:I would suggest the fan certainly comes on at an indicated 96C or so on the Easimap coolant temperature panel, but the issue is that is what the ECU thinks it is. In reality my infrared thermometer can only find temperatures around 80C in the hottest part of the cooling circuit and the radiator is only just starting to cool as the thermostat is only just on the threshold of opening. Interestingly my dash temp gauge also agrees with my infrared thermometer, that the fan comes on at 80C, as others have found (I had always assumed the gauge was inaccurate). I still believe the resistance to temperature correlation curve in the 992 ECU is inaccurate. I also had the same issue with an even more inaccurate sensor curve in the default map I started with in my unlocked 9A4 ECU. After correcting the curve and adjusting the fan limits to start at 90C and stop at 85C, the radiator gets hot after the thermostat opens, the fan only comes on after the car is stationary for a few minutes in ambient temps around 20C and the dash gauge agrees with the Easimap coolant temperature panel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregs79 Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Very interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slap_ed Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Thread resurrections2011 R400D 210bhp I was initially trying to adjust (using resistors) my water temperature gauge reading to match what I thought was the correct ECU temperature (via Easymap). Now I'm not so sure that the Easymap ECU reading is the actual true temperature. I've probably muddied the water even further by also measuring the actual temperature of each of the two temperature sender brass bodies. (ECU and gauge temperature senders)Example The ECU suggest 100 deg. (Easymap) The ECU sender suggests 79.2 deg. (Dual output digital temp gauge) The dash gauge indicates 83 deg. The dash gauge sender suggests 92.6 deg. (Dual output temp gauge)Similar to a previous post above, if you come to a standstill in traffic it's only seconds before the fan comes on and then tends to stay on until you get moving again. Suggesting that the fan struggles to keep a cap on the rising temperatures of around 100/101 deg. It certainly can't bring the temperatures down to the fan switching off point of 96 deg. Does anyone know of a ECU software update that they've had which made the ECU figures more accurate? Has any one removed the alloy cowling from around the rear of the radiator or removed the rubber flaps in order to help the fan dissipate the heat more readily when stationary? Below is a sample of readings for every rise of 5 degrees reported by the ECU. I had a plumbers dual temperature gauge with quite a fast temperature refresh display attached to both senders, a laptop with Easymap running and vidioed all of these at the same time, including the dash water temperature gauge. Then I could look back at the video and pause to note all the readings. I have a set of readings for every degree increase reported by the ECU between 50 and 101 degrees, but here's the 5 degree increments version. Fan kicks in at 98 deg and switches off at 96 deg as reported by Easymap.ECU Engine sender Gauge sender Gauge reading 50 44.0 45.6 - 55 45.3 49.0 - 60 47.7 53.8 48 65 50.7 58.4 54 70 54.0 63.6 61 75 57.6 67.2 65 80 61.7 72.9 69 85 65.7 77.1 72 90 71.3 82.8 76 95 74.3 87.9 79 100 79.2 92.6 83Has anyone managed to get to the bottom of the gauges not reading accurately? My attempt with resistors proved unsuccessful. Any other comments about any of the above would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNC Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Just to throw a spanner in to the works I have a 2012 roadsport Duratec that had heating problems I changed the thermostat to the lower 82c that helped but in traffic the fan was on of all the time !! Back to basics for the system to work properly it needs to be a sealed pressurised system. And after a run I would park in the garage I use to notice a hot smell slight antifreeze I checked all the hose clips and found a clip that would not tighten ! I changed the hose clip Hey-presto no more hot smell and the car runs fine now.I am not saying this is your problem but rather than the technical route it might be back to basics . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slap_ed Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Hi John,What sort of problems were you having before you changed the thermostats?I've recently checked all of the hose clips and I'm not losing any coolant so I'm happy that the system is pressurising as it normally should. In fact the car runs fine and I could just get on and drive it, but certain thing bug me and I would ideally like to get to the bottom of this.What does your water gauge read when everything is up to temperature?Does your car have the alloy housing behind the radiator with the rubber flaps?Thanks for the reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNC Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 The car fan seemed to be operating all the time on the original stat once up to temp , On the gauge the temp was 87ish, Now with the 82c stat normal temp on gauge is 83ish and fan on 86ish. I wasn't loosing any noticeable levels of coolant I think it was the lack of pressurisation that was adding to the over heating.On my car there is no housing around the radiator , I bought the 82c stat from CCI hope this is helpful.RegardsJohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slap_ed Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Thanks for that John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted October 14, 2015 Member Share Posted October 14, 2015 I had a plumbers dual temperature gauge with quite a fast temperature refresh display attached to both sendersInteresting data, but how and where does that gauge connect, please?Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slap_ed Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 It's a little bit Heath Robinson really. I trapped each of the temperature sensor wires against the brass body of the senders using a small piece of square rubber. All held tightly together using a cable tie. I thought the rubber would hold the temperature sensor wire firmly onto the brass without it being affected by external temperatures. (Manifold etc)/sites/default/files/images/users/3729/xlarge_image_6.jpeg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Colbeck Posted October 12, 2016 Author Share Posted October 12, 2016 An update for those with the will to follow this. I visited PGM the other day on an unrelated matter, and mentioned my ongoing frustration with the fan being on all the time. One of the team at PGM felt the upper and lower radiator tanks and remarked that the lower was cold, despite having just completed a run of 60 miles. He coupled the engine to his computer and we could see that the fan was programmed to come on at 97C. He suggested that the thermostat could be malfunctioning.The next day, I removed the thermostat and tested it in a pan of water on the Aga. It opened at 100C!!!In other words, the fan kept the thermostat shut!!! I have now sourced an 82C thermostat from CC, fitted it, and my problem has gone away. The engine runs at a steady 86C ish, and the fan cuts in only in heavy traffic, or on the approach to my home which is up a long slow drive.You can see my other attempt to cool the engine in this month's Low Flying when I waded a ford! Logan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slap_ed Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Hi Logan,R400 DURATEC.Your problem sounds identical in every way to my cooling system. My bottom hose never gets very warm even when the fan is on. Stop in traffic and the fan is soon on. The ECU brings the fan on at 98 deg (reported by Easimap) and off again at 96 deg, just a 2 deg window. My water temperature gauge reports 83 deg as the fan kicks in, that's a big discrepancy. Something is way out and I think it's the ECU.What 82 deg CC part number thermostat did you order as I'm going to try what you've done I think?What degree thermostat did you remove when you changed it to a 82 deg?Does your bottom hose get hot now?Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Colbeck Posted October 14, 2016 Author Share Posted October 14, 2016 Hello Slap-ed,CC have supplies of this part in stock and I got mine by return for £40.The part number is SN 3M4Z-8676-B1 475 495EN 3M4G-8676-BDBPMS No MFL 001 (Not sure which of these is the CC part number, but all are quoted on the box which is a genuine Ford item) The part was made in Mexico, and has a stainless steel shroud. That is very important, as the original plastic restraining posts snap off in time and tend to fall into the water pump delivery chamber.Nether the part I removed, nor the new part is inscribed with a temperature rating, but it is obvious from the springs which is the 82C part. Before you fit the new part, put them both in a pan and slowly boil them. The difference in the opening temperatures will be immediately obviious as the temperature rises.You will also notice that the thermostat feed connection is shorter than the 100C part. This actually helps, as on a S3 you have greater clearance from the chassis when refitting. If you want more, let me know, or email me on logancolbeck@yahoo.co.uk. Regards, LoganThe lower tank now gets hot!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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