Grim Reaper Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Following some apparently bad news on a "Wanted" thread,can anybody enlighten/confuse me as to the intricacies of the spigot bearing? I have a Caterham 6 speed box due to be mated to a Rover dealer sourced EU3 1.8 VVC engine.I have the VVC kit from Caterham (EA49 kit) and there is a steel sleeve and a needle roller bearing in the bag of bits. I presume the latter is the replacement spigot bearing but not having a clue as to what one is I am just making an educated guess. A search through the archives has brought a couple of answers but some contradicting views. Do I need to get the crank machined? Do I need to remove an existing bearing? Will the EU3 crank allow a straight fitment without machining? Do I need to remove some of the input shaft from the gearbox either way? How long does the shaft have to be? etc etc etc... (I knew this was going to cost me more money ☹️) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnty Lyons Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 The Rover sourced EU3 engine is designed for transverse gearbox and such the input shaft is different. You will indeed need the spigot bearing and sleeve and yes the crank will need line bored in a lathe preferably to allow fitment of same. Something a lot of us have had to have done when we have upgraded for instance to 1.8 from 1.6 utilizing a redundant 1.8 Elise crank where the Elise owner has gone to Steel bottom End. Welcome to the world of K Engineering. *eek* jj N.I. L7C AO. Membership No.3927. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiddy1 Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 I fitted a second hand VVC engine to my 1.4 supersport and there was quite a bit to do to get it to fit, my engine was a eu2 engine with the twin coil pack on the side of the engine. I had to drill the end of the crank to fit the caterham supplied spigot bearing, (the needle roller one) it fitted into the crank with a thin shim around it. this was really to make removal easier. Drilling the crank is not that dificult as the centre is quite soft. you can just clamp a piller drill to the flywheel and drill through below the base level of the drill. as I already had a 5 spd box that had been in the seven there was no alterations to the input shaft needed, I would assume that none would be needed on a six speeder. Just measure the protrusion from the bell housing to the end of the input shaft and drill the crank to the required depth I'm not sure what bearing your engine will have fitted in it at the moment, just measure the inner diameter and you will soon know if it will fit. what is in the the kit from caterham? do you have the machined inlet manifold? I have no idea what the steel sleeve is, what sort of size is it? Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 what EXACTLY needs doing in my case then 🤔 I have a 1.8 crank from an MGF and want to use it to replace the 1.6 crank in my car at the moment. I want to be able to do this as easily as possible at changeover time so would like to be ready to swap as simple as possilby. I'm going to order the bits from QED (which bits?) Then I'll give it to the machinists who will want to know what to drill, where and by how much... picutre would be useful here ❗ cheers. HOOPY 500 kg R706KGU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjwb Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Forgive me, but I have no idea what the ID of the crank palm is, but why not just turn up a phosphor bronze bush and press it into the crank 🤔 🤔 🤔 This of course may be as a sleeve for the needle brg, or as a bearing in its own right. Drill the crank on a drill press *eek* *eek* are you nuts 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔. The name of the game is CONCENTRICITY and ACCURACY. Steve B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnty Lyons Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 Caterham actually give you the sleeve for the needle roller in the kit and I would be very carefull about using a drill press I have the measurements somewhere but if your upgrading [Hoopy] you can just measure your 1.6 crank. I'll give you the measurements at Autosport David. jj N.I. L7C AO. Membership No.3927. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted January 4, 2003 Leadership Team Share Posted January 4, 2003 DO NOT DRILL THE CRANK - NOT NECESSARY! I'm in the process of converting my 1400 to 1800. I spoke to Caterham yesterday - Paul at the technical helpline no - and he very helpfully took my details, then telephoned back with an amount to cut off the gearbox input shaft. In my case this is 16mm. This is due to the fact that Caterham have the gearboxes fitted with differing lengths of input shafts dependent upon the engine / gearbox combination. You also need to buy the spigot bush and bearing to suit from either QED or Caterham (approx £20 for the pair). Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 I can confirm NO NEED to drill the crank. Shorten the input shaft to suit using and angle grinder IIRC 12mm was lopped off mine, be sure to check this first as the later 6 speed boxes came with the shorten input shaft as standard. The sleeve is necessary to adjust the size of the rover spigot bearing hole which is 22.15mm to that of the Ford which is 21mm dia. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 i've currently got a working 1.6 crank and gearbox so presumably i don't need to touch the gearbox input shaft 🤔 So its 20 quid from QED for the spigot and bearing (do i need part numbers or is just saying its for a ford fittment gearbox good enough 🤔) Johnty - diagrams and measurements MUCH appreciated please HOOPY 500 kg R706KGU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper Posted January 4, 2003 Author Share Posted January 4, 2003 OK,here's some measurements.... Crank hole diameter = 22mm (as close as I can measure,I could not get the digital caliper to read over 22mm) Input shaft end = 15mm Needle roller bearing ID therefore = 15mm (fits nicely), OD = 21mm Steel sleeve ID therefore = 21mm, OD = 22.15 (I do not think this will fit into the hole in the crank without damaging either) Input shaft is 195mm long (as measured from mounting face of gearbox housing) Bellhousing depth = 178mm Therefore input shaft protrudes 17mm from engine mounting face of the bellhousing. Thus,in the simplest form,I require a slightly thinner sleeve for the needle roller bearing for it to fit the existing hole or another needle roller bearing with the required inside and outside diameters. To work out if I have the right length of input shaft I will need to have a go at fitting the lot together and then see how much I will need to cut off the end (if any) A little job for the morning I think. Am I right in thinking that the spigot bearing takes the torsional load of the input shaft from the clutch action? And that if the shaft was too short/this bearing was missing that there would be a risk of the input shaft shearing at some point along its length with a shock load on it? Answers on the back of a postage stamp please.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted January 5, 2003 Leadership Team Share Posted January 5, 2003 Yes, that's pretty much it! Now you have the measurement for the protrusion of the input shaft out from the bell housing, do the same measuring on the engine, ie. the bottom of the crank end hole, relative to the mating surface of the block. You should be able to then calculate the amount to be removed from the input shaft - allowing a little for end float, but minimal. I'm awaiting my bits from QED to complete the changeover, but I've had it suggested that the adapter sleeve is best bonded in to prevent any possibility of it floating out and along the input shaft during use. I understand that if this happens you are back to the problem of effectively having no spigot bearing and the problem as you suggest. Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper Posted January 5, 2003 Author Share Posted January 5, 2003 Well,dry fits completed and results as follows. The gearbox input shaft is not too long...it all goes together without anything touching. The sleeve fitted into the hole with a little persuasion and the bearing with a little more of the same (it'll never come out again 😬) Simon,the EA49 kit from Caterham comes with the following items amongst others..Starter motor and adapter ring,Sump casting,Splash plate,Sump foam,Pipercross Air filter,Flywheel,Clutch cover,Clutch plate,EU2 spark plug cover (Caterham motif),Bag of bolts/washers/nuts for sump/clutch/bellhousing etc,temp sender,Bearings,Engine mounts and a few other parts which I can't remember. And no money spent today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted January 5, 2003 Leadership Team Share Posted January 5, 2003 I took all the measurements on mine this afternoon, and it would appear that there should be enough depth in the end of the crank without removing any of the input shaft, with about 1mm to spare. However, beyond the 22mm diameter hole in the crank end, it steps down to a smaller bore hole, thus achieving the required depth. I'm not sure of the diameter of the reduced bore - my verniers won't reach in to measure it - but obviously if it's greater than 15mm then there shouldn't be a problem! Is there a possibility that some 1800 cranks have this extra depth, and some don't? I think that likewise, I'll do a dry run this week before taking the grinder to the gearbox. Can anyone with shed any light on this? Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 have you got any pictures of all this please 🤔 My unmodified MGF crank is in one place and my spigot bits are at the shop so I can't visualise any of it *confused* Sounds like it just all fits nicely together on the crank and no real mods are required though... Perhaps I might have to ring Caterham - suppose I can get the rod end I need as well. (and when is the test match going to finish so i can go to sleep ❗ 😬) HOOPY 500 kg R706KGU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper Posted January 6, 2003 Author Share Posted January 6, 2003 Hoopy, I could take a couple of shots tonight when I get home,though as I have already (probably permanently) fitted the spigot bearing you'll have to imagine what it looks like without it for the time being. Send me an email address and I'll send them to you direct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 If you found you had to expend a large effort to fit the spigot bearing then you may have damaged it. Should this turn out to be the case, you will get what appears to be clutch drag with reluctant gear engagement, particularly first/reverse at standstill. You can remove the spigot bearing with a slide hammer with internal collets. Don't believe anybody who says you can pack the bearing with grease and use hydraulic force to knock it out - just makes a mess. Before fitting a new spigot bearing you should lightly dress the internal surface of the sleeve with a dremel and a spiraband. I have found that Caterham have been very helpful in sorting out this sort of thing, turning up with an engine in the back of the tintop, they have carried out the removal and refitting without even taking the engine out of the boot. Their top tip for a driver for the new bearing is to use an appropriate flange head bolt as a drift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper Posted January 6, 2003 Author Share Posted January 6, 2003 Not done a ham fisted job!,I used a rubber mallet, a piece of MDF and a 1/2" extension bar to drive the bearing home,no sign of damage to the bearing case and the input shaft still fits so I'll assume all is OK for now. It was a little tight but I did use a dremel to slightly enlarge the original hole entrance to allow the sleeve to be drifted in. Just waiting for Mr Andrews to call to tell me my head is finished and I can start putting it all together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 sounds like it does all slot together nicely then I ordered the bits today look forward to the pics though as my crank isn't handy. ...................................... My address is in the contact button just up there cheers HOOPY 500 kg R706KGU Edited by - hoopy on 6 Jan 2003 22:14:50 Edited by - hoopy on 6 Jan 2003 22:15:05 Edited by - hoopy on 6 Jan 2003 22:15:15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted January 7, 2003 Leadership Team Share Posted January 7, 2003 Ok, all measurements taken, no need for photos. The result I've come up with gives, surprise surprise, exactly the same figure as Caterham gave me! Gearbox face to end of input shaft: 30.3mm Depth of spigot bearing section of crank end bore: 20.1mm End of crank relative to mating face: 5.8mm, therefore effective depth of spigot hole relative to mating face is 20.1 less 5.8 = 14.3mm This figure of 14.3mm is therefore the amount that the 15mm dia input shaft should protrude from the mating face of the gearbox (ie. I need to remove 16mm from my 30.3mm shaft to achieve the correct length, just as Caterham stated). By my reconing this 14.3mm should be applicable whichever gearbox is fitted, when mated with a Rover 1800 engine. BTW, the extra depth of recess in the crank is only 14mm diameter therefore of no practical use. Sparks shall fly tonight!!! Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper Posted January 7, 2003 Author Share Posted January 7, 2003 Gawd,Hope you measure this all again before you lop the end off My input shaft (Caterham 6 speed) is 195mm from face to end,you say yours is 30 odd? seems a little short to me (comments about mine being bigger than yours would apply but I'm not sniggering 😬) Can you see the input shaft being 14mm too long when you dry fitted the gearbox and bellhousing to the engine? looking through the clutch arm hole with no flywheel on? Unless your crank hole is differently sized to mine then the 17mm protrusion from the bellhousing/engine mounting face that I ended up with would seem to be correct. Measure twice,cut once as I was always told....you can't stick it back on again!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted January 7, 2003 Leadership Team Share Posted January 7, 2003 When I say the mating face of the gearbox, I do actually mean the mating face of the bellhousing / engine. I am refering to the gearbox / bellhousing as one unit for the purpose of the problem. Therefore the distance I have come up with is 14.3mm protrusion of the input shaft from the bellhousing. You have 17mm. We're down to 2.7mm variation - we're getting there! As long as the spigot bearing fully supports the end of the input shaft, there is a little room for adjustment of this measurement. My calculations came as near as damn it to Caterhams statement of remove 16mm - so far I'm reasonably happy. Measured once, masked up, I'll sleep on it, then re-measure and cut tomorrow!!!!! Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 how are you removing the excess 🤔 hacksaw and angle grinder or does it need more precision 🤔 HOOPY 500 kg R706KGU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnty Lyons Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 I know I'm old and senile but it does seem strange to modify the spigot shaft. Can I ask is the spigot shaft shorter on a Std Caterham 1.8 [in other words to Catereham change the shaft depending on what capacity the engine is] Cos if they dont then it makes more sense to me to keep the spigot a std length and modify the bastard crank. jut my 2d worth. Anyhow thats what I did . jj N.I. L7C AO. Membership No.3927. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted January 8, 2003 Leadership Team Share Posted January 8, 2003 Hoopy - cutting disc in an angle grinder, then clean up the end with a grinding disc. Johnty - I believe machining the crank was how the conversion was previously done. However I now understand that Caterham use differing input shafts for different engines - the shorter "Rover" input shaft being suitable now for all Rover engines. I think this is possibly why some fit without adjustment and some dont. May be dependent upon age of original installation - my 1400 is mated with a long shaft gearbox - was the crank originally machined for Caterham????? The figure I had of 16mm to be machined off was given to me by the Caterham technical help-line. Straight from the horses mouth! Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper Posted January 8, 2003 Author Share Posted January 8, 2003 You must have a long one then 😬 My figure of 17mm seems to fit though,if I were you I'd ask Caterham if they'll replace the input shaft FOC if their suggested amputation results in a deficiency.... Did your dry fit result in you being unable to get the gearbox/bellhousing to fit onto the engine? If it didn't then I can see no reason to lop the end off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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